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Thread: Great Debate

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Great Debate

    I voted YES!

    You all know it will happen, as Jez points out it will offer yet another 'Stealth taxation system' and loads more that they havent even sussed out yet.

    There will no doubt eventually even be twats parked out in little ribs, hiding behind bushes and trees nickin us for speeding, drinking, or worse of all.....................

    Having a high performance open power boat.............with................WAIT FOR IT!!!












    A White hull, not blue! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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  2. #22
    Kipper's Avatar
    Kipper is offline Registered User
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    Default Re: Great Debate

    I agree. If we all seem to think that this is inevitable then we should be organising ourselves now to mitigate the damage.
    I can see an argument for compulsery training but why a license. A driving lic3ense seems to do little for road safety what good will it do for boat safety. Its just another Tax on living!

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Great Debate

    I'm completely against the whole idea.

    I find it amazing that many posters seem to believe that the moment compulsory licensing is applied - hey presto - standards are going to suddenly shoot upwards. I don't believe they will. Why on earth should they ?

    I'm equally surprised that people genuinely seem to believe this government is capable of joined up thinking in an effort to minimise casualties. They aren't - it's about control of the individual and control of the individual's earnings.

    I'm all in favour of compulsory TRAINING. Licensing just opens the door for further costs/expenses/taxes (call it what you will - either way, it's all revenue for HM government somewhere along the line).

    The approach favoured by the RYA is the sensible one. It is for this reason I have been a member for the past 16 years. They don't get everything right, but EDUCATION, NOT LEGISLATION is the answer here. I truly hope they will continue to fight this - should it stand a chance of becoming reality - all the way.
    Raus!

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Great Debate

    [ QUOTE ]
    I love the freedom a boat gives you - licensing would help take that away.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    With freedom comes responsibility and I am afraid that too many people want the freedom without believing that they should behave responsibly.

    I don't believe that self-regulation, as far as the general public is concerned, works. There will always be people ignoring the guidelines or recommendations. It is human nature. Licencing just allows a framework for enforecement and control of the plonkers. Sure, there is a cost to us, the non-plonkers but that price is worth it if it helps reduce the yobby and dangerous behaviour.

  5. #25
    michaelh is offline Registered User
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    Default Re: Great Debate

    See that's where we differ.

    Harbourmasters, MCA, MOD are not enforcement agencies in the way that Police are and I don't think they should be put in that position.

    However, it seems the only way it would work is if

    Govt decides we need a licence and works out a way to have a UK wide nationally recognised bit of paper. Applicable on Sea, Lakes, Broads & rivers

    (That's not going to work since River authorities will insist on special terms on their licence [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

    We all buy one - A bit like a fishing licence. Probably about 40 pounds a go.

    Govt decides who is allowed to inspect licence.
    Harbourmasters - probably but reluctantly
    MOD - I don't think so
    MCA - I think they'll resist being seen as the Police
    Police - Of Course
    RNLI - Not their Job.
    River Authorities - Naturally
    National Park wardens - Obviously

    So that leaves the Police (just a bit overstretched at the moment) and harbourmasters and inland water rangers.

    Then there's court time, witness & evidence statements, a new central computer

    Madness I say Madness

    Of course if someone is dangerous they can be prosecuted now. Plenty of rules against dangerous & antisocial behaviour

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Great Debate

    It wont happen for many years. Govt will look at it and consult but as they do they will get stuck in difficult issues which will take years to resolve even if they decided to introduce licencing in principle right now, which they haven't done.

    The difficulties include things like: (a) upfront cost of building computer database; (b) enforcing existing boat owners registration; (c) widespread use of offshore registration (Jersey frexample) by those who'd prefer not to register which will appeal to bigger boats whose owners have financial/wherewithal to set up offshore ownership structure; (d) how to apply UK law to a foreign flagged boats without triggering ti-for-tat retaliation by other states against red-ensign shipping (e) how to stop owner A lending his "tax disc" to owner B for a days sailing so they dont pay twice between them (unlike cars, folks dont use boats every day) (f) how to define and prove in court who was/wasn't the skipper/driver/person involved in navigation a vessel (g) cut off for small boats not needing to be registered? - what about canoes for example (h) millions more

    In countries with compulsory registration and boat tax, like say France, there are zillions of foreign registered boats who are not registered in France, not subject to French law and dont pay French tax. Most of the stuff registered is the local fleet of peche promenadery. You never see a French registered big boat

    In countries that enforce tough registration (eg Croatia has rules along the lines of crews have to be registered, charter boats must be locally flagged, visiting boats have to check in and get transit papers and a whole load of other red tape) lots of folks just avoid the place. It would be crazy for the UK to introduce rules that depress the marine industry and boater activity (though they are heading that way with red diesel...)

    So, I reckon this wount be implemented for years and years. No way could it be done inside 5 years even if they start now

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Great Debate

    I can understand that given your recent injury that you feel that something must be done. However even if we had licences today, I doubt you'd see any redress because there is very little policing of the current laws that apply in most harbours and estuaries. So if you want the current laws policing - then someone is going to pay for that, and that will be us either through higher harbour dues or something akin to the car tax disc.

    Coupled with that, how do you realistically enforce a "no wash" policy? You will have to define what is acceptable and then come up with some scheme to measure wash which will stand up in court. I suspect that will be pretty difficult to do especially when there will already be some swell due to wind and tide effects.

    I suspect that those that make the bylaws are already aware of this which is why you rarely (or ever?) see prosecutions for wash - but you do see speeding prosecutions (though even those are rare). This leads people to think that the speed limit is more important, so do the speed limit regardless of wash. Small boats are often beyond hull speed at the typical 5 to 8 knots speed limit so tend to be the worst offenders.

    Rick

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Great Debate

    [ QUOTE ]
    I can see an argument for compulsery training but why a license.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I see compulsory training the same as a licence. If you must have the training what will you have to prove that the training has been done? A LICENCE perhaps. You could call it a certificate if you like but I see no difference.

    So, I agree with compulsory training and a test to show that a certain standard has been met and a penalty system, ideally with on-the-spot fines to cut down paperwork and red-tape.

    It is something that would be necessary prior to using a boat and without it use of a boat would be illegal. It could be withdrawn or endorsed appropriately.

    This is a licence by any other name.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Great Debate

    I very much doubt if a licence would raise standards - I can see it perhaps helping standards fall.

    With your latest accident caused by a real stupid bit of boating - do you think for onse secind that had that person had a licence, which would have had to be basic and a low standard, that they would have been less stupid?

    My partner just siffered a head on car crach with a boy racer and a bit of very stupid driving that almost killed her - he had a licence.

    How do you know that the person who created all that wake did not have an ICC or even a yacht master?

    The facts are that boating is a very safe persuit. Bycycles cause far more accidents per annum but are not licenced.

    I have every sympathy with your accident but you have not produced a shred of evidence that a licence would have prevented it nor a shred of evidence that even had licencing been in place a prosecution would have followed.

    Maybe the mags can difg out the safety stats fore those countries with and without licences. My understanding is that the UK without licences has a safer record.
    Paul
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Great Debate

    Muddled thinking.

    Motor vehicles kill some 3500 people a year in this country

    That is an issue.

    There is no evidence that tests of drivers and vehicles reduce this figure.

    Boats hardly kill anyone at all.

    So what problem will you be solving and why do you think a solution that has clearly failed on the roads will succeed (if you can identify what "success" is) on the water.

    I would prefer you to campaign for licensing and testing for bicycles and skateboards.

    These devilish devices cause far more casualties than boats do.
    If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

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