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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Solent
    Posts
    1,102

    Default latest if anyone interested

    Please dont shoot the messenger I was sent a copy of this quote. Its nothing we didnt already know but its official


    The BMF, RYA and IWA are pleased to provide an update on how the end of the derogation will be implemented as of 1 November 2008.



    Introduction



    We have been working closely with HM Revenue & Customs since early 2007 to produce a pragmatic and sensible solution to the implementation of the end of the derogation. Prior to that, from 2003, we successfully lobbied Government to seek the retention of the derogation but this was rejected by the European Commission in favour of its tax harmonisation agenda.



    Once it was confirmed that the derogation had to come to an end, our key concerns were to:



    · Secure the continued availability of diesel at the waterside

    · Minimise the impact on the boater and industry

    · Avoid safety and environmental implications of transporting fuel by hand



    In February of this year, when HMRC published its outline proposals, we were pleased to see that our efforts had succeeded and that all of these concerns had been taken into account, particularly by allowing recreational boaters to continue to use red diesel. Since then, we have been endeavouring to ensure that the detail of HMRC’s proposals is as simple and as effective as possible.



    Successful Co-operation



    The BMF, RYA, IWA and HMRC all agree that it was disappointing that the derogation was not renewed by the European Commission, despite what we all considered to be a very strong case. We also all agreed that the end of the derogation presented considerable difficulties in terms of implementation. We are very pleased, however, that the BMF, RYA, IWA and HMRC have been able to work together successfully on behalf of the industry and recreational boaters. HMRC has been very receptive to the concerns of suppliers and users and has managed the consultation process well.



    HMRC Conclusions



    · HMRC accepted the overwhelming wish of both suppliers and users that red diesel should continue to be available to recreational boaters.

    · The loss of the derogation will only affect fuel used for propulsion, which will be subject to the full rate of duty.

    · Red diesel at the rebated rate will continue to be available for domestic purposes, such as heating and lighting.



    How will it work?



    1. When recreational boaters buy diesel for their craft, they will need to make a declaration to the supplier if they intend the fuel to be used for propelling a private pleasure craft.



    2. The recreational boater will also declare what percentage of the fuel will be used for propulsion (as opposed to domestic purposes such as heating and lighting).



    How will the boater work out what percentage of fuel they intend to use for propulsion?



    HMRC has understood our arguments about the potential difficulties for fuel suppliers in calculating duty and VAT – in particular for the smaller operators – when faced with customers claiming different percentages of fuel used for propulsion. HMRC also appreciates the concerns of users about the difficulty of calculating and apportioning their own intended usage accurately and their worries about unintentionally making an inaccurate declaration. However, the EU Energy Products Directive specifically refers to ‘fuel for the purposes of navigation’ (which is reflected in UK law as ‘fuel for propelling’), so there is no legal basis for imposing a single standard apportionment to be applied universally that pays no regard to actual usage for propulsion.



    HMRC has therefore confirmed to the BMF, RYA, and IWA that their advice on this issue is as follows:



    Q. What will be the allowance for fuel used on boats for heating and lighting?



    A. There is no fixed allowance. It is for the purchaser to declare the percentage of fuel used for propulsion. However, analysis by both the industry and HMRC suggests that a split of 60% for propulsion and 40% for domestic use (heating, cooking etc) probably reflects most people’s use and it is therefore likely that many users will declare such an apportionment. This will make it easier for suppliers (known as Registered Dealers in Controlled Oils) to work out additional duty and VAT. However, where a purchaser knows that their propulsion use may be more or less than the above apportionment split or a craft clearly has no domestic use, then they must declare their actual intended usage.



    Q. What about residential boat owners where nearly all fuel is for domestic purposes – what can they declare?



    A. We have recognised the status of residential boat owners whose primary residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings or move just a very short distance along the towpath from permanent moorings. If they live aboard the craft permanently and hold certain documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence, Council Tax Bill in respect of the mooring, or other peripheral documentation, invoices or bills which provides proof of permanent residency, they may purchase all their fuel at the rebated rate (as if they were a commercial vessel). They will still be required to make and sign a declaration saying that 0% of the fuel is for propelling purposes. It will be the responsibility of the declarant to ensure that they hold the requisite documentation should HMRC wish to check the validity of the declaration made in these circumstances. Continuous cruisers may not declare 0% under these arrangements, even if they reside permanently on their craft, they must declare their actual intended usage for propulsion.



    Registered Dealers in Controlled Oils (RDCO) will need to account to HMRC for the additional duty received from recreational boaters. RDCOs already owe a general duty of care to ensure that they only make supplies of controlled oil for legitimate uses.



    Further Information



    We will continue to work with HMRC to provide support to suppliers and users over the next few months. RYA and IWA will provide guidance to their members and the BMF will offer an information service for industry. HMRC has confirmed that it will provide supplementary guidance to RDCOs and that its emphasis as the new measures bed in will be to help and advise suppliers and users to get things right.

    unquote

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Oxfordshire
    Posts
    4,218

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    Still don't see how this is good news, theres a lot of boats out there with no domestic use whatsoever. I shall probably just go down the local garage and get some quality stuff for a better price anyway.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Solent
    Posts
    1,102

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    the main reason is because for every 100 lts you put in you pay £1.20 for 60 lts and 70p for the 40lts overall it works out at £1 a lt. We were expecting to pay £1.20 so its 20p a lt cheaper and not doubled.

    I think we should be happy with this considering it could have been worse.

    in an ideal world it should be 70p or the 40p it was last yr but sh*t happens

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Oxfordshire
    Posts
    4,218

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    But my domestic consumption is zero, unless you count heating water in the calorifier but there's no way 40% of my consumption is heating that, i'd be surprised if it was 0.5%. So what moraly am I supposed to declare when I fill up? It might be HMCE are trying to do the right thing, but they have put enough clause's in there to say you can't deliberately make a blatantly false declaration, so basicaly it's bollox unless I'm missing something [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] And the last time I filled up it was 86ppl (Shepperton River Thames) so the final price even 60/40 will be close to forecourt prices anyway.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    ked into poverty by children
    Posts
    8,517

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    Chris_d as I understand it battery charging is domestic. Assuming that you have 2x 55A alternators at 12V then you are capable of making 1.3kW to go back into your batteries. Or look at it as Ah, if you have 2 x 110Ah batteries so a real capacity of about 130Ah you need to top that up. I'd guess that on river speeds you are looking at 2-4 hours engine time to top that up. If you wanted to get very picky then yes, I gather that domestic hot water production is at reduced rate. Now a 100l tank has 100kg of water. from 20deg to 70deg so 50deg temp rise, specific heat of water determines energy input as domestic and so forth.
    Two beers please, my friend is paying.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Oxfordshire
    Posts
    4,218

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    Yes I know the theory, maybe i'm just being dim but it doesn't say anywhere that "indirect" consumption for domestic use is allowed. The inference is its that only diesel burnt in Eberspachers, Generators or cookers etc... Diesel burnt in the engines is for propulsion even though they charge the batteries and heat the water, but theres still no way you can get anywhere near 40%. Are they really going to allow a diesel powered 20ft sports cuddy to claim 60/40 for his domestic cabin lighting? I must have missed the nudge or the wink.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Solent
    Posts
    1,102

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    penny has dropped

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    ked into poverty by children
    Posts
    8,517

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    >>>
    Yes I know the theory, maybe i'm just being dim but it doesn't say anywhere that "indirect" consumption for domestic use is allowed
    >>>

    Does it say anywhere that it is forbidden? Some of this has come about by representations from liveaboards who may well run engines while not moving in order to make hot water, electricity etc, even from mains output engine driven alternators.
    Two beers please, my friend is paying.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    81

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    Sounds like the usual mealy mouthed hand wringing rubbish we,ve come to expect from the RYA over EU legislation. Same story with the RCD directive, acceptance of the ICC etc.Beaurocrats to a man. Its bad news for everyone particularly motor boaters. Looks like us raggies will have to go back to the traditional way of doing things along this stretch of coast. Sailing everywere and throwing revenue men off of cliffs or running them out of town.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    41

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    Thanks for the update. This is disappointing as MBM mag just dropped through my door with an article ”Red Diesel Reprieve?” Suggesting that HMRC would charge a flat rate of 60/40 as a self-declaration scheme would be “costly and open to abuse and raises the prospect of on water inspections of fuel receipts by customs agents.”
    When I leave the Thames to cruise to the Solent I will fill up in Ramsgate and 3 days later I will fill up again at Port Solent. The paper trail and my receipt will indicate that 80 gallons of the 200 I took on in Ramsgate would have been used for heating my boat in August in just 3 days……Penny dropped?
    There is nothing here for the motor boater that goes somewhere in his boat, it is a bit late foe the RYA to realize this. Good for the IWA to fight for its member, many of whom live on board, good for the aviation lobby getting a minimum increase for its members good for the BMF fighting to keep red diesel for its members but the RYA have not looked after my interest.
    Just as a footnote 398 gallons to go from Thames to Solent and back in my old semi-displacement trawler yacht at about 10 knots next years fuel bill for same trip £2400
    We have all been let down by the RYA.

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