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  1. #11
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    Nov 2007
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    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    John

  2. #12
    Andrew_Fanner is offline Registered User
    Location : ked into poverty by children
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    >>>
    We have all been let down by the RYA
    >>>

    Just think a little harder about the "Y" in "RYA", then it all becomes clear. Perhaps it is time for an RMYA to come into being?
    Two beers please, my friend is paying.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    358

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    I think there is very much something here for the motorboater that goes places. The article in October's MBM was written a week before the news broke that HMRC accepts that 60/40 is representative of most people's diesel use. This word is critical.

    To apply a flat 60/40 split across the board and make it uniform would contravene EU law. However, what HMRC have done is give a nod to the vendors and suppliers to charge a flat 60/40 rate at the pump.

    The off the record chat from the boat show is this: for such an insignificant revenue gain, HMRC are extremely unlikely to enforce this, meaning more or less everyone with a diesel boat, no matter its actual split of domestic and propulsion diesel, will be able to fill up with 60/40. They accept that there is a vast number of boats out there, all using diesel for different things that is almost impossible to quantify.

    The vendor will be well within his rights to only charge two rates at the pump, as any more than that and the paperwork will become overly burdensome (as if it's not already!). So theoretically, he will be able to supply commercial users at the rebated rate and leisure users at the 60/40 rate - and that is it.

    The hope is that this 60/40 split will become so presumptive that it's not even asked at the pump. It will be a flat rate, just not according to the law.

    It's not ideal, as the price will still jump. But it's a thousand times better than you having to keep a log of your exact fuel usage, then going to the pump and making a unique declaration, only for the vendor to have to do the maths, and then present HMRC with thousands of declarations stating different apportionments. A complete headache for all concerned.

    This is simply the path of least resistance. We'll be following this up at length in the November issue.


  4. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    41

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    Stuart , Well that is certainly a bit of a u-turn. A week ago, a fixed 60/40 flat allowance was described in MBM as “far better than the self declaration scheme” as such a system “would be costly and open to abuse and raises the prospect of on-water inspections of fuel receipts by Customs agents”. I agree with those sentiments and would have welcomed a fixed allowance, as I would not be required to commit fraud every time I fuel up. I expect you will have to fuel ‘Blue Fin’ every 2 or 3 days when on the cruises, how do you propose to declare your usage?
    You state EU law stops us having a fixed rate applied, was this not apparent a week ago? I was told 3 months ago by the ATYC that HMRC were not prepared to accept self-declaration and were working towards a fixed proportion.
    It seems to me that quoting EU law always provides an excuse not to do something. I do know that EU law required us to apply a minimum of 21 ppl tax to our marine fuel. This quickly became a non-starter, why? Because the law states, “we cannot charge a different tax on the same fuel” where does it state that? In addition, why then are we proposing to charge two different rates of tax on red diesel? Then the law states, “We cannot charge a different fuel tax than that which we charge on the road.” Where does it state this? MBM published a table of fuel charges for EU members and three countries charged at least 25ppl less for their marine fuel than they did for road fuel. Perhaps MBM could use its resources to verify that some of these convenient laws exist and if they do, could they be interpreted differently.
    If the HMRC really wanted to help the boater, all they had to do was accept that red diesel is sufficiently different to white diesel to justify taxing it at the minimum EU rate, they could have used the facts published by MBM to this end. As you know this is what they did for the leisure aviators. Whether it is more different or less different should not matter if there is, as you suggest, a will to bend the rules to find a compliant solution. .The compliant solution is (and always was) to add 11ppl to the tax that we currently charge. No paperwork, no fraud, no additional work for HMRC. Perhaps if the RYA had fought for this instead of deferring to its members who wrote saying that the RYA should not campaign to keep a reduced tax, we could be instigating a sensible solution on the 1st November instead of well meaning but flawed legislation that may leave the boater vulnerable to prosecution. The Dutch authorities expect to revert to fining UK boats carrying red diesel after 1 Nov. Hopefully UK government will remember to inform the EU that this remains legal, but I do not think much of our chances of convincing then that it is legal that 40% of the fuel onboard has been taxed at less than the EU minimum.
    After November 1st, our fuel tax will forever be linked to road fuel and the automatic fuel escalator designed to limit road use. This administration may be prepared to turn a blind eye to some creative declarations, but will the next?

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    358

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    While we haven't got an official 60/40 split, we have the next best thing - an understanding from HMRC that they won't chase down people declaring such a proportion.

    This is as close to official as you can get without breaking EU law. We didn't quite appreciate the legal implications when we wrote the story as it was done at the last possible moment after various sources gave us the nod that 60/40 was on the cards.

    So in the end, the story hasn't really changed. 60/40 is the result, albeit unofficially, and we should be chuffed. There's be no annoying paperwork for the boater, and no-one will be committing fraud as the Govt accepts that most people's use is 60/40.

    All the things you mention about private aviators, minimum EU duty and harmonisation with road fuel is all stuff I've been emailing, phoning, meeting, harassing HMRC staff about for three years. I could go into it here, but I'd be writing for the next hour, and it's the weekend and I don't fancy it. Email me at stewart_campbell@ipcmedia.com on Monday if you want.

    We're not sure what we're going to do about Blue Fin just yet. It's still being discussed.

    The Holland angle is one we're pursuing. We're hoping to get some confirmation from HMRC that they've informed their Dutch counterparts of this news.


  6. #16
    whisper is offline Registered User
    Location : Stratford upon Avon & S.Devon
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    Congratulations on your "this is how it is " post - I couldn't agree more.
    How people with any regard for powerboating can conclude that this is a good deal is beyond me.
    All that the gov't needed to do to comply with the EU, was charge the 21p minimum tax. However, our pseudo representatives sold us out by not fighting on this basis.
    I've left the RYA because of it and hope many others do the same - their performance on this matter has been abject.

  7. #17
    Andrew_Fanner is offline Registered User
    Location : ked into poverty by children
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    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    >>>
    This administration may be prepared to turn a blind eye to some creative declarations, but will the next?
    >>>

    I would hope that the next adminsitration will be far less driven by the blind politics of envy that drives this lot to squeeze every penny out of anyone who has any money not given by The State. Maybe even with the cojones to say to Brussels "this is how it works here, put up or shut up".
    Two beers please, my friend is paying.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    Andrew don't hold your breath.

    My MP said "he recognises the the contribution the boating industry makes to the UK economy and to the quality of life of his constituants but the energy products directive states that we cannot charge a different amount of tax on the same fuel so we will have to charge the full road fuel tax"
    He is the Conservative party treasury spokesman!

  9. #19
    Andrew_Fanner is offline Registered User
    Location : ked into poverty by children
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    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    As I said, cojones to say to Brussels...
    Two beers please, my friend is paying.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
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    5,882

    Default Re: latest if anyone interested

    [ QUOTE ]
    Andrew don't hold your breath.

    My MP said "he recognises the the contribution the boating industry makes to the UK economy and to the quality of life of his constituants but the energy products directive states that we cannot charge a different amount of tax on the same fuel so we will have to charge the full road fuel tax"
    He is the Conservative party treasury spokesman!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Can you legally use red diesel in your car?

    No.

    So how can it be the same fuel ? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

    Brian

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