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  1. #41
    mikef's Avatar
    mikef is offline Registered User
    Location : Chesham, Bucks
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    Default Re: Pardon?

    [ QUOTE ]
    The consensus view is that there is no legal requirement for an owner to provide evidence that VAT has been accounted for on a boat within the EU

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree with that in theory but, unfortunately, on a few occasions boaters have been asked to supply this evidence. I was once boarded by Dutch police and asked to supply proof of VAT payment which, fortunately, I was able to do. This is the only time that I have been asked though in 18yrs of boating. The trouble is that the sort of people that might ask for this kind of document are not the sort of people you want to get into an esoteric argument over EU law with. Better safe than sorry IMHO which is why I would certainly continue to insist on an original VAT invoice if buying a VAT paid used boat

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Pardon?

    I never heard about a Yacht losing its VAT paid status because it is located outside of the EU, you loose if you change the flag really and go out EU registration that is correct...
    my beleive was always that once VAT is paid and you have the original receipt you are covered in this

    on the other hand apparently there is a mess with the Italian leasing on the opposite reasons, because part of the leasing benefit that you get VAT reduced rate comes because a boat being a moveable object will do part of its time in other waters outside the EU that why it should get discounted rates, now the italian authorities are checking the log books of the leased boats (99% of boats have been bought like this there) in Italy to see which of them was outside of the EU and for how much, and this is really creating big troubles for the Italian internal market
    the problem is that the Italians Govt want the French and Maltese to do the same with there leasing, but do you think these countries want to miss this income, I dont think so, so they leave Italy in the mess it created on its own
    may be Mapis M can tell us more about this....

    for Mike F the Italian luxury tax, or better known as Tassa the Stazionamento was abolished in 2001 I think and has not been reinstated, and was for Italian citizens and Italian registered boats

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Pardon?

    The Dutch police have no jurisdiction over VAT. What would they have done if you had not produced it? Almost certainly nothing. As you say, once in 18 years. The Revenue in all countries have far more important things to worry about, and the only time they are likely to make an issue is if they believe you are trying to import a boat into the EU without paying duty and VAT. For example, the French authorities are particularly vigilant in Normandy and Brittany because of the possibility of Channel Islands boats trying to establish permanent berths in France/EU without paying VAT and registering as French boats.

    Anyway, being asked by authorities in other countries for this documentation is not really the issue. It is when the myth that it is required is so well established that, for example, finance houses will not advance money against a boat unless the borrower - who may be umpteen owners away from the original purchaser can produce original documents - following HMRC advice that seems to have no basis in law.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Pardon?

    [ QUOTE ]
    they leave Italy in the mess it created on its own
    may be Mapis M can tell us more about this....

    [/ QUOTE ]I'm afraid I can't, 'cause I've never been interested in those leasing contracts.
    I was even surprised to understand from jfm in another thread that they're structured as personal loans, thus leaving any asset of the beneficiary exposed... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] Very different from other leasing contracts on industrial equipments I'm more familiar with - but that's another matter anyway.
    Re. the "Tassa di stazionamento" instead, that was actually abolished in 2003, but it was related to ANY Italian registered boats afaik, regardless of the owner citizenship.
    Not that many UK or Maltese citizens would think to keep their boat IT flagged anyway... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

  5. #45
    John100156's Avatar
    John100156 is offline Registered User
    Location : MK & SANT CARLES DE LA RAPITA
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    Default Re: Does this worry those of you who keep boats in spain?

    Lots of words 1089 viewed, 43 replied - So, has ANYONE resident for less than 6m in Spain ever paid or been asked to pay, or for that matter know for sure, anyone who has paid this 12% tax when moving their boat from the UK to Spain?
    SEALINE F43 - CORAL RAE

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Does this worry those of you who keep boats in spain?

    Hi Guys,
    A very interesting one this, especialy for me as I run a charter company in Menorca. and also skipper vessels for clients. In my readings down the thread so far I would agree with Huricanes coments compleatly. It appears that he also runs charters so has a clear idea of the amount of paper work we have to go through and the required docs etc. However reading all your comments my heart is sinking as I am now questioning my own understanding which is.

    Matriculation is payable on a vessel over 15m if the vessel is to be used for hire / rent/ charter. And it is for this reason that we see far more charter vessels in France rather than Spain. I know of nobody who uses their vessel for private use who has had to pay Matriculation. As the vessel is not earning an income in Spain. To this point most charter boats (British registered) book their charters in the UK and pay VAT and income tax acordingly. So the vessel is chartered via a UK booking. This is not to say that the Spanish dont get a fair share of the action as alongside all the documentation required for charters in the UK survays, charter license, Charter insurance, etc etc we also need to repeat all this with the Spanish authorities. to include public liability, Spanish survey, port authority fees, etc etc. Its a minefield. However in all this paper chase I have never been asked for a matriculation Tax payment. Ask yourself this? Why do Sunseeker and Fairline produce vessels which fall just within the 15m rule Sunseeker Portafino 46 Fairline Targa 47 two very popular charter boats in the Med. All our vessels available for charter are less than 15m

    With regard to the heaps of vessels moored in Palma that would appear to be running charters in many cases their home ports and charter licence is in France and so they get away with it saying that the charter commenced in France and finishes in France and the Balearics are just a port of call. This is the same as many of the bigger Charter motor yachts, just look at the Sunseeker charters web site and see how many vessels over 15m are based South of France and nothing Spain.

    When I aproached my advisers in Palma with regard to licensing a 72' Predator we were looking at Matriculation bills at 120,000 rendering chartering un viable.

    So please correct me if I am wrong, as I like to try and keep one step infront of the authorities in Espania. But I must say that in my experience the authorities when challenged seem to have little understanding to the requirements. I also try and retain non residency by closing the business out of season.

    A great subject lets try and get to the bottom of it!

  7. #47
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Does this worry those of you who keep boats in spain?


    I think we are all agreed that the Matriculation tax is levied once a person becomes a resident i.e. lives ashore or aboard in Spain fro more than six months correct. OK then given the senario I have copied below from my earlier post*,
    it is a FACT that once you become "Spanish" then you as Spanish resident CANNOT skipper a foriegn flagged vessel unless that vessel has had the matriculation tax paid on it. I know this from personnel experience.

    How then do all the British skippers of British flagged charter vessels as mentioned by Mike, who live and work on the vessels all year round in the Balearics for example, get away with it. I would wager they are denying being resident, as they could not then keep their job if they were resident as it would mean the owner paying 12% ont vessel.

    Clearly this also means that any British "Delivery" skipper who becomes resident cant deliver foreign flagged boats? Emm I wonder how SS, Princess etc get away with that out here as most of there skippers are resident.

    Thats before we start on subsequent qualifications, though in my area they do accept YMC once you become resident.

    __________________________________________________ ______________

    * "P.S. if you keep you boat in Spain and live in UK, and say your neighbour here is a nice Spanish fellow and you say "hey Pedro whilst I am back in the UK feel free to use me boat" if he gets caught using your UK reg vessel he will be charged and have to pay the 12% matriculation on the boat, they will stick a precinto notice on it until it is paid. This is cos "Spanish" residents cannot skipper foreign flagged vessel unless or until the matriculation tax on that vessel is paid.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Pardon?

    Well, you have clearly not read the VAT regulations (in easily digestible form on the RYA website). If a boat leaves the EU then is re-imported, it is subject to VAT unless the person who re-imports it is the same person that took it out of the EU. If it changed hands outside the EU it loses this somewhat vague "VAT paid" status.

    No doubt this is a very difficult one to police. For example if the sale took place between two EU private citizens it could be difficult to prove that the sale took place outside the EU. On the other hand if the sale was to a non-EU citizen then VAT would be payable on entry into the EU, unless the owner applied for temporary importation - further complicated rules, again on the RYA website. Note this is EU wide, not just UK.

    There is no absolute proof that VAT has been "accounted for" on a boat, because there is no obligation to identify the boat on the invoice, nor for the person responsible for accounting for VAT (the vendor) to keep records for more than 6 years. As an example, the VAT invoice for my boat, purchased from a Greek dealer identifies the boat by its Greek registration number - which is now not relevant as it is no longer on the Greek register. The Bill of Sale, however which is the legal transfer of ownership identifies the boat both by its original registry AND its HIN. However in 5 years time (ie 6 years after I bought it) there will be no record of VAT payments to the Greek revenue that would have included the amount paid by me - but not recorded as being specifically for my boat, except by reference to the invoice number.

    This is hardly surprising as the tax is not on the asset, but on the transaction. The vendor only has to account for his "value added" - ie the VAT he receives minus the VAT he has paid.

  9. #49
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Pardon?

    [ QUOTE ]
    Well, you have clearly not read the VAT regulations (in easily digestible form on the RYA website). If a boat leaves the EU then is re-imported, it is subject to VAT unless the person who re-imports it is the same person that took it out of the EU. If it changed hands outside the EU it loses this somewhat vague "VAT paid" status.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    this 100000% wrong, it is about the flag, not the country really I am sure cause my client won a court battle about this

    London registered 55ft boat with VAT paid German owned sold to French, changes flag to Gibraltar, boat always moored in France = VAT Paid not valid
    as stated by the RYA old owner could make it valid only
    I think leaving the EU means changing flag and going to a flag outside EU, that is correct but RYA dont specify this

  10. #50
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    Default Apologies for repeating myself, but...

    [ QUOTE ]
    London registered 55ft boat with VAT paid German owned sold to French, changes flag to Gibraltar, boat always moored in France = VAT Paid not valid
    as stated by the RYA old owner could make it valid only

    [/ QUOTE ] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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