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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason -and the arguenauts View Post
    My boat should point well, at least according to the tests at the time it was introduced. "Tack though 80 degrees" for example.

    But the race yesterday showed pointing ability much the same as a good bilge keeler. So what's wrong with the boat set up?

    Mast rake and bend are correct and the rigger thinks I have the tersnions OK. Sails are good, relatively new and in decent condition.

    Any other things to look at?
    A lot of the previous advice is very good, but I am wondering whether you may be getting confused about 'pointing ability'?
    There is no real reason why a bilge keeler shouldn't be able to point as high as a fin keeler, BUT, a bilge keeler would probably have more leeway than a fin keeler.
    In other words, if you started off sailing on a beat side by side with a bilge keeler, you would probably point at the same relative angle, but the bilge keeler would gradually fall away due to leeway.

  2. #12
    srm's Avatar
    srm is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason -and the arguenauts View Post
    "Tack though 80 degrees"
    Could be journalists shorthand for "thank you very much for your generous hospitality"

    Unfortunately, you do not say what type / model as other forumites may well be able to confirm your experience as fairly normal.

    Personally, have always thought that mag sail tests present boat performance (especially tacking angles) in the best possible light rather than give figures that could be attained by ordinary mortals. Perhaps the guys doing the tests just have so much more experience at sailing all sorts of boats that they intuitively get the best out of it. Also, the seller is usually going to have new sails and set the boat up as well as possible (and when not so the journalists make appologies and say we would expect better when x or y is done). After all the whole financial purpose of the mag is to sell advertisers their readers.
    Last edited by srm; 07-09-09 at 18:13.

  3. #13
    PeterGibbs is offline Registered User
    Location : N London, and boat in Suffolk
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason -and the arguenauts View Post
    My boat should point well, at least according to the tests at the time it was introduced. "Tack though 80 degrees" for example.

    But the race yesterday showed pointing ability much the same as a good bilge keeler. So what's wrong with the boat set up?

    Mast rake and bend are correct and the rigger thinks I have the tersnions OK. Sails are good, relatively new and in decent condition.

    Any other things to look at?
    I'll lay a 5p bet that you are experiencing drag from too much foresail. I often wonder at skippers sailing to wind with large genoas all strapped down - more sail the better! No - a source of significant drag for no gain in forward drive. A 100% high cut jib will do more for most boats to windward than loads of canvas, especially if low cut and scooping up waves!

    PWG

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterGibbs View Post
    I'll lay a 5p bet that you are experiencing drag from too much foresail. I often wonder at skippers sailing to wind with large genoas all strapped down - more sail the better! No - a source of significant drag for no gain in forward drive. A 100% high cut jib will do more for most boats to windward than loads of canvas, especially if low cut and scooping up waves!

    PWG
    There is a bit of truth in this, but provided the rig is balanced, a large overlapping No1 will be more effective upwind than a jib, blade or whatever. At least until it's quite windy They are quite heavily penalised under IRC but the vast majority of racing yachts have a 130% + genoa and find it pays to windward.
    Not saying it's true for ALL boats of course.
    My favourite foresail on the 395 was the No3, about 100% but low to the deck. Sheeted inside the shrouds, the boat would point high and fast, but in less than about 15kts true the No2 was faster and pointed as well.
    YMMV, there are a lot of variables and it takes more time than I had to experiment and get the best out of everything.

    Another suggestion for the OP is to get some photo's taken from a RIB, with known settings, from astern to look at the leaches and from upwind. These pix can be usefully discussed with a sailmaker.
    Some clubs have run races where a coach takes such photos of every boat and discusses afterwards.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukes4monny View Post
    A lot of the previous advice is very good, but I am wondering whether you may be getting confused about 'pointing ability'?
    There is no real reason why a bilge keeler shouldn't be able to point as high as a fin keeler, BUT, a bilge keeler would probably have more leeway than a fin keeler.
    Sadly not. I was in the middle of the bilgies on the first beat when all the fins were going away maybe 10 deg maybe 5 deg further into the wind.

  6. #16
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    Thanks for all the suggestions. Some are quite possible culprits, some are not. The boat is a Starlight 35 fin keel (1.8m), and the bottom is clean and fair with a folding prop. There was about 15/20 deg of wheel on going upwind which translates into about 5/10 deg of rudder. The boat was well heeled under reduced sail (both genoa and main) - more of a reduction than most other boats and since it isnt a tender type, my guess is that we were getting too much heeling force and not enough forward force.

    From what people have said, slack forestay might be involved but I couldnt check at the time. Genoa cars werent adjusted for the reef because there are no telltales visible when reefed. Certainly we went better when we unrolled all the foresail but still didnt point too good.

    Flaming - what do you mean about leach tension on the main? We moved the mainsheet car up the track to get the boom along the centre line and adjusted the main sheet to get the leach tell tails flying.

  7. #17
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    Refueler is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterGibbs View Post
    I'll lay a 5p bet that you are experiencing drag from too much foresail. I often wonder at skippers sailing to wind with large genoas all strapped down - more sail the better! No - a source of significant drag for no gain in forward drive. A 100% high cut jib will do more for most boats to windward than loads of canvas, especially if low cut and scooping up waves!

    PWG
    Very true ... for years I've carried max canvas forward on my old tub of a boat ... thinking I need itr to get her moving. This summer I had to roll in about 1/3rd of the genny ... boy she flew ! I was amazed. The sail sheeted in better, the slot with the mainsail was far better with main leading part not fluttering as it usually did with full genny out ....

    My boats no way anywhere near a race boat ... it's a motor sailer - but PWG's post is spot on that I experienced.

  8. #18
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    Maybe: try a bit more kicker to increase leach tension and ease the mainsheet a bit to reduce heel; a bit more weight on the rail and feather her up to windward to keep her upright - not too much though, or you might loose drive, adjust the genoa car to open the leach slightly? Just my dinghy dailing twopenny worth.

  9. #19
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    Thats a thought. I only normally use the kicker to keep the boom down when running. But then how does what you suggest differ bfroim using the track to open the leach and the sheet to keep the tension you want?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    There is a bit of truth in this, but provided the rig is balanced, a large overlapping No1 will be more effective upwind than a jib, blade or whatever. At least until it's quite windy They are quite heavily penalised under IRC but the vast majority of racing yachts have a 130% + genoa and find it pays to windward.
    Starting to get somewhat off topic.... But I'm afraid this is out of date. I can't think of a cruiser racer, or dedicated race boat, launched since 2004 with an overlapping headsail. IRC really hates them. On the Elan we're in the process of getting rid of them, as we think the rating hit is just not worth it, especially as the design of smaller jibs has improved so drastically as to be able to get a lot of power out of them, especially with a barber-hauler. In fact we think we will have the same speed as before in over 10 knots, certainly in over 12, and easily good enough to sail to a rating 15 points lower in over 8. And since racing generally doesn't start until there's a reliable 6 knots that leaves a 2 knot hole where we might still wish for a big genoa. And we were never really competitive under 10 knots anyway....

    The equation might start to turn back in favour of the big headsails on a masthead rig, I don't have much experience with them under IRC, but certainly with a fractional rig the Genoa is rapidly becoming history.
    You never know, I might be right!

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