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  1. #161
    kcrane is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser2B View Post
    Good question. You should assume that from at least 6 miles, the bridge crew is watching you and making plans to avoid you. That said, the average range at which a manoeuvre is made, is closer to 2-3 miles - this accounts plotting your movements, planning a solution, trialling on ARPA, informing the captain if necessary, etc, etc. There are sometimes other anti-collision situations also at play - this could cause the ship to alter earlier, or later than the rough 2-3 mile average.
    In answer to your question, you can probably take action as close as 4 miles without perturbing the big ship too much, as long as it is bold and plainly obvious (30 or more). This is not strictly in accordance with colregs, so if you made your move sooner, it would be better.
    Ah ha, I'm feeling better about this thread now.

    I'm trying to remember how far away we would be when we make our changes and about 5 miles seems likely, that would be about 10 minutes away at 30knts.

    If we took care to make a call before the 6 mile mark (which happens to fit nicely to my radar marker rings) then everyone should be happy.

    Having said that I'm using radar and AIS with a fairly modern plotter on a fast boat. The kit works it out for me.

    Quite what I'd do in limited vis on a 5knt sailing boat, hard on the wind, in iffy sea conditions while feeling a bit seasick I hesitate to consider. But then that's probably why I switched to a mobo.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by hlb View Post
    But if you dont have a crash, how do you know you broke a colreg or not.

    In any case, I would think the distance a ship has to look ahead, is much greater than a Mobo.

    I'm begining to worry how I've survived through my 44 years of boating.
    I'm thinking the key issue is taking early action Haydn. I doubt you leave it to the last secend then swerve all over the place.

    I think most of the time in this thread everyone is arguing about nothing. Even Tim agrees that if you take early action, it's OK.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAKA View Post
    Are you suggesting he was a bit of a coward and attempting to spill wind in an attempt to allow the Frigate to pass by infront of him.
    Should someone take a note of his sail number and report him for breaking the law.
    Do you think if they prosecute to make an example of one or two the other cowardly 80% will also get the message.
    Oh yes. Cowardly. He obviously doesn't feel comfortable standing on. But you should recognise that too. Perhaps the naval vessel shouldve just turned to port one they were bow to bow

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcrane View Post
    Ah ha, I'm feeling better about this thread now.

    I'm trying to remember how far away we would be when we make our changes and about 5 miles seems likely, that would be about 10 minutes away at 30knts.

    If we took care to make a call before the 6 mile mark (which happens to fit nicely to my radar marker rings) then everyone should be happy.

    Having said that I'm using radar and AIS with a fairly modern plotter on a fast boat. The kit works it out for me.

    Quite what I'd do in limited vis on a 5knt sailing boat, hard on the wind, in iffy sea conditions while feeling a bit seasick I hesitate to consider. But then that's probably why I switched to a mobo.
    I likewise rely heavily on my modern plotter, radar and AIS. As that's what i have and i'm in a mobo, i make my decisions based on that. No point worrying what the raggy i the distance, with the paper chart, glass eye and parrot on his shoulder will do, that's his problem.

    I take action as early as possible and make a very decisive turn. The ship skipper now knows what i intend and will continue on his course. I'll then keep changing my course a little to bring me back closer to my original course, but still pass the stern of the ship, which will also be obvious to the ship skipper, his ARPA will still show me passing his stern.

    If i was to get into a close quarters situation, i would follow Colregs, as there isn't time for second guessing each other. As i'm on the East Coast, i don't get into so many close quarter situations as the South Coast guys and when i do, it's usually in narrow channels, so a different approach is applicable (different rules, big draft, narrow channel etc)

    There may be factors that will affect the above decision making, other ships/boats in the area etc. But that's the general gist of my technique.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGooch View Post
    Even Tim agrees that if you take early action, it's OK.
    It feels like a lifetime ago, but here's what I wrote on Scuttlebut, last week, on the first day of this marathon. The only thing I have changed is that I have added colour to highlight a point that so many people seem determined to miss:-
    Quote Originally Posted by timbartlett View Post
    Part of me is reluctant to get involved in a discussion about the rights and wrongs of Rule 17 which I know has become acrimonious in the past.

    But I think the most helpful way to deal with it is to think of a potential collision situation in four phases:
    (1) No risk of collision -- do whatever you like
    (2) Risk of collision identified -- standing on is compulsory
    (3) Give way vessel identified as not taking action -- stand on vessel has option of taking action
    (4) Give way vessel cannot avoid collision -- stand on vessel must take action.

    The problem is identifying when you cross the line between the different phases.
    The first one is relatively easy. We have legal precedent that says six miles is in phase 1
    But at some distance less than 6 miles, we move into phase 2. If you want to be sure of staying within the law, I would suggest that it makes sense to regard it as starting at 6 miles, because we have no precedent to suggest that phase 1 lasts any longer than that.

    So when does phase 2 end? It's very difficult to be certain when someone driving a completely different vessel might be expected to have taken action, particuarly for someone with no similar experience. I suggest that many recreational yotters (sail and power) are inclined to exaggerate the lack of manoeuvrability of a ship: we all hear stories that it takes X miles for a supertanker to stop, but forget that in a collision situation, we are not expecting the Globtic Tokyo to drift to a halt: we are probably talking about a few thousand tons of general cargo vessel altering course by five or ten degrees -- something that takes only a few tens of seconds, and that can be completed in just a couple of ship-lengths.

    http://shipsbusiness.com/turning-circle.html, for instance, shows that a 20,000ton container ship, nearly 300m long, can turn a complete 360-degree circle in less than half a mile, even at 26knots.

    There is quite a lot of research that suggests that in ship-ship encounters, most watchkeepers regard this optional give way phase as beginning at about 2 miles or so. But in ship/small craft encounters it could be very much less: we cannot be certain that we are into phase 3 until we are well within two miles.

    A couple of minutes after we cross the two mile range ring on the ship's radar, her watchkeeper starts to run out of options. But we (in small craft) don't. When a ship is a few hundred yards away, he can't do anything about it --- but we can. We are then in the fourth phase, where avoiding action is compulsory ... as well as common sense.

    The thing that worries me is that many people seem to think that at four miles they are still in phase 1, but that at 2 miles they are already into phase three or four. The ship, OTOH, may well have altered course by five degrees to go astern of you when he was still six miles away. By altering course "to go astern of him" at three miles, you might be negating the effect of his action.

    Sorry to go on.
    Tim
    My position on this is exactly the same as it was when I wrote the RYA book on the colregs two years ago, and almost exactly the same as I was taught 37 years ago at BRNC Dartmouth. I guarantee that it hasn't changed over the past six days -- despite DAKA's attempts to trip me up and HLB's insistence that the rules only apply to professionals and poor people.
    Last edited by timbartlett; 25-01-11 at 01:03.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by timbartlett View Post
    It feels like a lifetime ago, but here's what I wrote on Scuttlebut, last week, on the first day of this marathon. The only thing I have changed is that I have added colour to highlight a point that so many people seem determined to miss:-


    My position on this is exactly the same as it was when I wrote the RYA book on the colregs two years ago, and almost exactly the same as I was taught 37 years ago at BRNC Dartmouth. I guarantee that it hasn't changed over the past six days -- despite DAKA's attempts to trip me up and HLB's insistence that the rules only apply to professionals and poor people.
    I didn't follow the Scuttlebuut thread, as i don't frequent the forum.

    I actually agree with :

    (1) No risk of collision -- do whatever you like
    (2) Risk of collision identified -- standing on is compulsory
    (3) Give way vessel identified as not taking action -- stand on vessel has option of taking action
    (4) Give way vessel cannot avoid collision -- stand on vessel must take action.

    The problem is identifying when you cross the line between the different phases.
    The first one is relatively easy. We have legal precedent that says six miles is in phase 1
    But at some distance less than 6 miles, we move into phase 2.
    Not so sure about the distance for (2), as you say it is blury and i feel this is what causes all of the debate/arguments. To be perfectly honest, i'm not really sure of the distances when i choose to make a course change, I do know they are a decent distance and have never caused a close quarters incident. I'll pay more attention to the distance on the radar next time, for reference.

    I also feel the the distance between 1 and 2 can be variable, depending on your own circumstances. Are you onboard a sailboat or a mobo, how fast are you going, how fast can you go, etc. The data that is available to the skipper must surely play a part too, it's so much easier to make a quick decision from a long distance if you have radar and AIS, than if you were plotting a course with nothing more than a paper chart, for instance.

    Reading back through some of the thread it certainly is a blury line where some are saying you must stand on and some are saying they change course, but i can't help but feel underneath it all, we are mostly singing from the same hymn sheet.

    Although, with respect to all, there are some post where, for example, you yourself haven't been clear about distances (although you posted the afore mentioned on Scuttlebut) which seems to lead some to believe you advocate standing on until the death. Then there are the post on the other side of the fence that advocate turning to port, which seems to fly in the face of Colregs, when i fact, they are turning to port early enough for it not to impact Colregs.

    I suspect that in reality, most people are actually following Colregs.

    Whatever, i've found some of the thread interesting and informative. If nothing else, it makes one step back and consider the actions one takes

  7. #167
    PaulGooch's Avatar
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    Damn, i think i just agreed with Tim, can a mod please delete my last post ?









  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by timbartlett View Post
    despite DAKA's attempts to trip me up
    It hasnt been my intention to trip you up.
    As I have being trying to say for the last day or so is that we(the whole forum and boating community) are all acting in a similar way and complying with col regs.

    The gap between us is one of explanation on how we actually act, you make the col regs sound like a suicide pack to some of us.

    If a ship alters course 5-10 degrees to go round my stern I am still not comfortable in standing on.

    The reason being it is not safe to pass 1/4 mile infront of a Tanker .
    a) you cant be certain he has seen you
    b) there are numerous reasons why my speed can be interrupted leaving me a sitting duck.

    Your plan to turn to starboard and wait is also flawed
    a) it puts me closer to the kill zone
    b) I loose my magical and impressive agility.

    that is meant as a serious post...........

    Now lets look at the 6-2 mile stand on in more detail .....

    Mrs Barking gets on the Seacat from Ryde bound for Portsmouth at 1300 hrs one sunday, 2 hours latter she gets off in Brighton and asks the hostess where they are
    ' I am sorry Mrs Barking, the Captain has bought himself a yacht ready for his retirement , he's taken it all very seriously and been on an RYA course"

    Mrs Barking protests, "But my husband is waiting for me in Portsmouth, he is not going to be very happy"

    Hostess " Well the Captain has learned that he cant helm to Port when standing on to craft 6-2 miles away and the solent gets rather busy on a Sunday afternoon."

    Mrs Barking "You just wait until Tim finds out about this"

    Hostess "Sorry Mrs Barking, you should have been here last week during the Bank Holiday, we ended up at Folkston"
    .

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAKA View Post
    It hasnt been my intention to trip you up.
    As I have being trying to say for the last day or so is that we(the whole forum and boating community) are all acting in a similar way and complying with col regs.

    The gap between us is one of explanation on how we actually act, you make the col regs sound like a suicide pack to some of us.

    If a ship alters course 5-10 degrees to go round my stern I am still not comfortable in standing on.

    The reason being it is not safe to pass 1/4 mile infront of a Tanker .
    a) you cant be certain he has seen you
    b) there are numerous reasons why my speed can be interrupted leaving me a sitting duck.

    Your plan to turn to starboard and wait is also flawed
    a) it puts me closer to the kill zone
    b) I loose my magical and impressive agility.

    that is meant as a serious post...........

    Now lets look at the 6-2 mile stand on in more detail .....

    Mrs Barking gets on the Seacat from Ryde bound for Portsmouth at 1300 hrs one sunday, 2 hours latter she gets off in Brighton and asks the hostess where they are
    ' I am sorry Mrs Barking, the Captain has bought himself a yacht ready for his retirement , he's taken it all very seriously and been on an RYA course"

    Mrs Barking protests, "But my husband is waiting for me in Portsmouth, he is not going to be very happy"

    Hostess " Well the Captain has learned that he cant helm to Port when standing on to craft 6-2 miles away and the solent gets rather busy on a Sunday afternoon."

    Mrs Barking "You just wait until Tim finds out about this"

    Hostess "Sorry Mrs Barking, you should have been here last week during the Bank Holiday, we ended up at Folkston"
    Ah - but you miss one critical point - once you have turned to starboard as per colregs then there is no longer a collision risk and therefore the colregs no longer restrict your movement - so you can turn back to port and then pass around the stern.
    Alternatively you could turn 270 to starboard ...

    As an alternative alternative you could just change your speed ....

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireball View Post
    Alternatively you could turn 270 to starboard ...
    Well done fireball, I think you have solved this debate at last.

    Did I see you on the http://www.worldsgreatestbusinessmin...OM-create.html last night
    .

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