sailing to france question

[Dockhead]

Toad, you misunderstand the way legislation works. I've pointed you to the legislation authorising the douaniers to board and search, and undertake controls of any vessel in French waters. The authorities say that includes the right to demand registration documents.
I've pointed you to the article that provides for a fine of 300-3000 euros for violations of the Code.
This legislation, like most legislation, is intentionally broad so as to cover many situations. There is no English law making it illegal for a cashier to take £20 out of the cash drawer every time she serves a customer - it would be covered by the more general prohibition against theft.
It is extremely unlikely that any nation would enact the specific legislation that you insist upon.
So, the legislation is not specific. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The only way for you to be sure that you are right in your interpretation would be to go over in your unregistered boat and provoke the douaniers to try to fine you, then challenge that in court.
As I said in my first post, the douaniers say that registration documents are required, and there is legislation that supports their assertion, but the general nature of the legislation means that it hasn't convinced everyone on this forum.

From a legal point of view -- and I wasted part of my youth teaching in law schools -- this is correct. The law says every boat -- and specifically mentions foreign boats -- must have a certification of registration or title document on board. Period. It may or may not contradict international law, but it is very clear, and it is the law of the land in Frogland. Every boat.

I would not particularly like to spend the sailing season (or a few seasons) trying to prove to a French court that a French law contradicts international law. It would be a few million times easier to get the bit of paper in the first place.

[toad_oftoadhall]

Guys I am happy to let this thread run & run but if one of you living in France could visit a local office and confirm:-

1) The legislation referred to in this thread is applicable to visiting British Flagged boats.

2) Do they apply it (even when the British skipper is nice and apologetic for not having the relevent original paperwork).

3) Do they apply a fixed fine or it the amount descretionery.

4) How frequently do they fine British boats.

If you can quote the office address visited, date, time hopefully it should convince Toad and either the answers confirm the RYA advice and I can ask Toad for a cheque or otherwise. If it ends up with charity contributions (including my £100) I will get a receipt and table it at the Scuttlebutt dinner.

Appreciate that this is a bit of an inconvenience so if no one can manage it prior to September I will take Al up on his kind offer and ask the above questions myself.

Whoa! I agree it would be a good idea for someone to visit a local office (as Al did here: [1]) However in I offered to pay you £100 to identify the offence via the RYA because you are a current member and can ask wheras I cannot. I did NOT offer you £100 to ask people on YBW to talk to French customs which I could do for myself and has already been done at no cost to me and totally failed to identify the offence[1].

Having said that, if someone else can identify the legislation (meeting the criteria I laid out in post 103) within the next 7 days I will extend the offer I made in post 103 to them as well as Sailfree.

Needless to say I will stand by my offer to Sailfree in 103.

So for 7 days, first one to identify the offence committed when a British Flagged Vessel is unable to produce an original SSR when visiting France gets the ton.

£100 is a bargain to put this one to bed once and for all.

[1] Post here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showpost.p...4&postcount=19
Thread here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251517[/QUOTE]

[toad_oftoadhall]

The law says every boat -- and specifically mentions foreign boats -- must have a certification of registration or title document on board. Period. It may or may not contradict international law, but it is very clear, and it is the law of the land in Frogland. Every boat.

So you don't need an original registration document at all - a title document is fine. No idea if that's true but it sounds plausible since a title document and proof of address would prove the vessel is British Flagged beyond doubt.

...be interesting to see if that turns out to be correct.

I would not particularly like to spend the sailing season (or a few seasons) trying to prove to a French court that a French law contradicts international law.

Why would you need to? At least one persons says the fine is £9. Just pay the fine. I suspect that only people who lose their docs, charter boats and boats from nations that do not have registration for small boats would be without registration certificate anyway. No need to go to court at all.

[al.carpenter]

Toad is right, 100% right. If I proposed to visit officials in Cherbourg it is just to confirm what I have said months ago. I have been there, asked hundred of times all these questions and unless I really am stupid (not a Mensa member but always been told I was well above average intelligent...??!!) NO ONE can be fined for not providing a SSR document... Point. I will add 100€ to the charity kitty if proven wrong to today's date. Al.

[Wunja]

Just for some variety, I had a look on the website of the ANWB. (Dutch equivalent of the AA/RAC, but also look after the interests and qualifications of Dutch cruising sailors).

They say for France:

• an ICC is required;
• an ICP (equiv of SSR) has not been needed since 1/1/2006;
• insurance is not required, but recommended,
• the VAT receipt is required.
• They also say (and I don't think this has been mentioned) that a crew list is needed on entering a sea port.

No mention of VHF ships licence or user certificate

http://www.anwbwatersport.nl/vaarinf...frankrijk.html

[al.carpenter]

italiens don't need ssr (or equivalent), dutch don't need ssr. Why should brits have to have one? Could any spanish, german, portugese or whatever forumnite check on their respective "cruisers association" what they think of this? That's fun detective work. 007 what are you doing? In bed with a russian bird I bet....

[Tranona]

However in I offered to pay you £100 to identify the offence via the RYA because you are a current member and can ask wheras I cannot. I did NOT offer you £100 to ask people on YBW to talk to French customs which I could do for myself and has already been done at no cost to me and totally failed to identify the offence[1].

£100 is a bargain to put this one to bed once and for all.

[/QUOTE]

Coming out now! Your beef is with the RYA. Why are you offering £100 to someone to do what you can do for a fraction of that - by signing up to be a member. And if you behave yourself for the required number of years you can become a well informed Gold Personal member.

You see, I think you have some dark secret you are hiding. Perhaps you are a character in a Dan Brown story searching for the Holy Grail. Well, you are now in sight courtesy of bbg. Normally at this stage in the story, the pursuers are either blinded by the brilliance of their discovery, condemned to eternal damnation- or the ground opens up and swallos them.

You have 24 hours to choose your ending.

[vyv_cox]

Just for some variety, I had a look on the website of the ANWB. (Dutch equivalent of the AA/RAC, but also look after the interests and qualifications of Dutch cruising sailors).

They say for France:

• an ICC is required;
• an ICP (equiv of SSR) has not been needed since 1/1/2006;
• insurance is not required, but recommended,
• the VAT receipt is required.
• They also say (and I don't think this has been mentioned) that a crew list is needed on entering a sea port.

No mention of VHF ships licence or user certificate

http://www.anwbwatersport.nl/vaarinf...frankrijk.html

I'm not getting involved in the SSR debate but I'm pretty certain the ANWB are incorrect about the ICC, at least so far as British yachtsmen are concerned. We don't need an ICC for French waters. I also believe that we don't need a crew list. Is this not a Schengen requirement? UK is not a signatory.

There is also considerable debate about VAT receipts, but that is yet another argument.

[Stork_III]

I'm not getting involved in the SSR debate but I'm pretty certain the ANWB are incorrect about the ICC, at least so far as British yachtsmen are concerned. We don't need an ICC for French waters. I also believe that we don't need a crew list. Is this not a Schengen requirement? UK is not a signatory.

There is also considerable debate about VAT receipts, but that is yet another argument.

Schengen Crew list is certainly required by UK boat into any Schengen Area country.

[bbg]

italiens don't need ssr (or equivalent), dutch don't need ssr. Why should brits have to have one? Could any spanish, german, portugese or whatever forumnite check on their respective "cruisers association" what they think of this? That's fun detective work. 007 what are you doing? In bed with a russian bird I bet....

Good idea. What various national cruising associations say about the French requirements is much more persuasive than http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F842.xhtml.
Or you do believe the same thing as toad - that the French are telling porkies on their website about the real extent of their powers?