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  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    SPAIN,Galicia
    Posts
    12,701

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    I was "owned" by a schooner a folly that I lay parcially at my wifes door as she had been to the states and wanted a schooner!After a few years we converted to a cutter and the weight of material left on the dock gave the boat a new lease of life and she actually went to windward.They are great to look at as long as somebody is the owner.I will admit to occassional burst of "avast there heavin" which is a out of place on a modern boat,but It all in the mind........

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    S.W. France
    Posts
    7,678

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    I admire you for the idea. They do look good. Get a good book on designing boats and compare your hull to schooner designs. Work out what you want and before cutting, pass it under the nose of an NA. Small cost to (possibly) avoid great grief. If posting on other forums, best to not mention scaffold poles, they might doubt your expertise.... Thoughts that come to mind: include the weight of the mainmast in an aft position. The chainplates and bowsprite attachments are not big deals.
    Courage!
    A

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    8,652

    Thumbs up

    Gentlemen, I'm grateful for all your many wise words; by them, I'm led to believe that as usual, most of what I need to know, can be found by reading...everything, from the Kermath engine to Alden's catalogue and the Stateside penchant for very tiny two-masters! I must visit the library.

    I regret I can't post pics, because - to be clear about it - the vessel I'd inflict my schooner ideas on, isn't quite my own, yet, and at present, is another man's liveaboard, somewhere on one of Brittany's rivers. I hope to be the uppermost choice amongst potential inheritees, when the time comes. It's not actually a family affair; complicated situation, and discretion prevents my enlarging upon it.

    The other boat I have access to, and whose diesel engine has lately expired, is too petite a tub to build a schooner rig on. So, as when I was a boy, most of my immediate plans are limited to paper. Not that I feel that to be a great misfortune. Your combined advice is very instructive and entertaining. For example, the weight of a second mast, had never even crossed my mind!

    The boat in my sights for the schooner conversion, is a rather long-keeled ketch, though I'm told sloops were available on a similar hull (hard to believe there are any, similar). I like to think that the present mainmast could be re-stepped a few yards astern of its intended footing, and that a not-very-much shorter foremast could stand perhaps three foot forward of where the mainmast now resides.

    Looking at my somewhat indecisive plans, I see that I've predicted almost identical staysails, for both masts. Sounds like a saving, if the sails must be custom made...two the same, must cost less than two quite different? On the matter of sailplan, I seek your thoughts again:

    How to fill the upper space between the masts? I'm not averse to a gaff foresail and fore tops'l, but then I'd be tempted to go the whole distance and rig a gaff main...and I'm unlikely to find the budget for that, any time soon.

    A bermudan foresail boasting a healthy roach, might suit, but I tend to think only in staysail terms, so the space above belongs to what I'd heard is called the 'fisherman', a sort of upside-down staysail that is the first to be reefed when the wind pipes up. I've seen schooners with wishbone booms up there, too, though I don't know their everyday practicality.

    As ever, I'll stow all your input for very serious consideration, both now and when I'm standing in a queue, or 'listening' to SWMBO...

    Best of luck Simes, bringing your schoon back to her best. I wish I could visit! Thank you for the thought, I'll PM if my circumstances change.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    35,606

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrane View Post
    The boat in my sights for the schooner conversion, is a rather long-keeled ketch, though I'm told sloops were available on a similar hull
    Is it a Westerly, by any chance?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrane View Post
    Looking at my somewhat indecisive plans, I see that I've predicted almost identical staysails, for both masts. Sounds like a saving, if the sails must be custom made...two the same, must cost less than two quite different?
    I've never had two identical sails made, but I doubt much of the cost is in design or layout work that could be shared between the two, so I wouldn't assume it will make much difference. A small discount for the extra business, perhaps.

    If you were heading off long-term, being able to swap one sail for another and/or carry a single spare that will cover either seems like a handy benefit, but I wouldn't compromise the design just to make it happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrane View Post
    How to fill the upper space between the masts? I'm not averse to a gaff foresail and fore tops'l, but then I'd be tempted to go the whole distance and rig a gaff main...and I'm unlikely to find the budget for that, any time soon.
    I assumed this would be gaff-rigged on both masts! I have to say, a bermudan-rigged schooner would be an odd-looking thing that many wouldn't even take for a schooner at all unless they thought about the technicalities of the definition. It's not doing much for your romantic "lay aloft and stow the topgallants" image to just have two white triangles instead of one.

    If you can't afford to have a single sail cut, or the timber to build a gaff (you said you do good woodwork) then do you really have the wherewithall to do major structural conversions?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrane View Post
    the space above belongs to what I'd heard is called the 'fisherman', a sort of upside-down staysail that is the first to be reefed when the wind pipes up.
    My understanding of a fisherman staysail is that it's a 4-cornered thing, with one end of the head to each masthead, the tack hauled down to the deck around the foot of the foremast, and the sheet from the clew led somewhere aft.

    What you describe I would call a "mule", more commonly found on ketches. Its luff goes more or less up the main backstay (some are on roller-furling foils) and the sheet goes to the mizzen masthead.

    Pete

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Devon
    Posts
    531

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    If by a bermudan schooner do you mean like one of these?

    http://images.traderonline.com//img/...mb_550x410.jpg

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    S.W. France
    Posts
    7,678

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    Sailing around the area here, Isle d Re/Rochefort, I have seen a couple of times a nice schooner in GRP. Around 35ft. Since this is not an urgent project, I will see if he appears in the next few months and take a pic or two. Might be based in Minimes. Looked practical rather than rustic,but elegant.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    8,652

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    I believe we're talking the same language, but perhaps I'm a bit untutored.

    That 'Traderonline' link is exactly what I meant by a bermudan schooner. Not to my taste. I've seen that particular one before, though I can't recall the manufacturer's name. I'm sure it's a practical solution, but in truth, I'm not surprised that I can think of so few yachts rigged this way. No offence to the owner, but it hasn't much more visual appeal than many average ketch sail-plans.

    Beyond any doubt, I would go for gaff schooner rig, if I could. But the degree of customisation required for gaffers, (all-new sails, separate topmasts, gaffs, multiple halyards, a mainboom half as long as the vessel's l.o.a. and...(my chief dread)...running backstays)...all sounds seriously pricey and problematic. Whereas...

    ...I'm assuming that fairly standard masts and sails can be assembled into a staysail schooner (i.e. both masts carry a small 'jib-shape' sail forward, plus upper/outer jibs on the foremast and some other space-filler above the staysail between the masts; plus the standard mainsail, now about 30% further aft of the position it had when the yacht was a sloop).

    Granted, nothing tops the gaffer, for looks and character. Unless someone's planning a brigantine?! But in the real world, I've seen photos of what I call staysail schooners, which left me speechless.

    PS - PRV...no, it's not a Westerly. I don't actually know the builder. It's very old, and somewhat in the 'modify-at-will' style of a Hillyard.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    S.W. France
    Posts
    7,678

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    About size, Hunter Liberty and several sub 20ft open boat designs in the States. Schooner does not have to mean big boats.Though the looks are def better on a bigger classic style.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    S.W. France
    Posts
    7,678

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    I was funning around Portimao in a small dinghy and saw an interesting boat out near the outer breakwater. Three masts and very polished. Sailed past her stern and under the current name was 'used to be Vendredi Treize' Google her for more info. Since her glory days was then in the charter market. Crew all in matching outfits.
    A triple staysail schooner.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    8,652

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    Vendredi Treize? Was't she the vast OSTAR racer from the seventies, which would have been the biggest singlehander ever, were it not for someone else entering an even bigger, four-master in the same race?

    Neither of these giants were pretty, if I recall the photos. But the hulls will have been awesome bases, on which to design really beautiful, workable custom schooners. Makes me think again of the Malcolm Miller, down on the Fal.

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