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  1. #111
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    Fascinating thread this.

    Throwing another question out there...

    Does anyone have any experience of ocean crossing with twin rudders? A lot of the pros of long keels seems to be their tracking ability, an effect which is often replicated, especially off the wind, by modern boats of the Elan 350 / 450 type with a big bottom and twin rudders.

    Now I'm not suggesting those boats exactly - but the thought occurs that there might be more than one way of skinning the goose. And such hull shapes would undoubtably be faster, just as good at tracking and come with much bigger cockpits. Plus the wide, flat hull shape aft will roll less at anchor (and on passage too) and generally offer much more accomodation.

    Disadvantages would be the upwind motion, although they would of course be sailed with much less heel, and (I'm guessing here) arguably worse heavy weather survival. And since there aren't a lot of second hand examples - purchase price.
    You never know, I might be right!

  2. #112
    alant is online now Registered User
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    [QUOTE=snowleopard;3399888]
    Quote Originally Posted by rotrax View Post

    Having done a couple of 1000+ mile passages on an Island Packet, I would not hold them up as an example. Comfortable motion - as you would expect from 15 tonnes on a 40 footer but they sail like a brick.
    "Originally Posted by alant

    As I posted earlier, long keel yachts are made in relativly large volume by Island Packet. Their Bob Johnson designs are trademarked as "Full Foil Keels" Look at their website and check the hull shape- looks like a long keel to me!"


    You sure you've got the correct poster, cos this below is the only one I've made on this thread! I've never mentioned Island Packet!

    ("If long keels are so good, why doesn't anybody make them any more.

    I loved sailing the Nic 32, stable, good in very strong weather, lovely motion but a nightmare in marinas, cramped and not particularly fast.

    You've answered your question "why doesn't anybody make them any more."

    "but a nightmare in marinas" )

  3. #113
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    >Well I don't want a stand up row, but you must have sailed some rubbish fin keeled boats. I know that there are lots about, but there are also some ges that won't broach and misbehave in the way you describe.

    Boats sailed include Jeanneuas, Benteaus, Dufours and Gibseas. Endeavour (US make) which was heavily made and behaved well. Which AWB's have you sailed that don't misbehave?

    >I have enjoyed a few ocean passages and I have never been on one where the crew didn't watch the progress made with great interest. In light airs all efforts being made to get the boat moving and lots of happy discussions about what the first beer or run punch will taste like. So the point I am trying to make is that if you enjoy sailing just for being at sea then fine, but most people seem to like to make progress and if I get there two or three days quicker then that makes a lot of sense to me.

    We do enjoy sailing and we do keep the boat moving and we do like making progress for obvious reasons. Two or three days to is is not really importnt to us though. To a big crew I can imagine it is.

    >Some of my Ocean sailing has been in JSASTC Nicholson 55's. (fin keel, skeg and rudder partly supported). Difficult to find a more sea kindly safe yet reasonably quick ocean sailor. Unless you are going to tell me otherwise?

    I'm not going to telll you otherwise, that's a well designed and built boat perfect for ocean sailing with a big crew. Bear in mind that the bigger the boat the better the motion, most cruising boats are smaller than that pobably averaging about 40 feet from what we've seen.

  4. #114
    john_morris_uk is online now Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellysEye View Post
    Which AWB's have you sailed that don't misbehave?
    I have sailed lots that don't misbehave. For fin keeled boats that behave: try lots of the Westerly range - some of the Moody's. Swan's, Malo's some of the Najad's. Halberg Rassey's, Sweden Boats etc etc.

    I have sailed all of the above (except Malo's) at some time or another and they almost without exception do not exhibit the bad traits that you described in your previous post. Be a bit choosy about which model from the range you sail - and you can find a delightfully mannered boat that has excellent accomodation and sails quicker and points higher etc etc than some of the 'long keeled classics' that some people seem wedded to.

    Many of the boats you listed are lightweight boats with fat backsides that will probably take you round the world - but not in the safe and secure way we are discussing here. I also find their sailing characteristics a pain in the backside. I don't enjoy having to play the main in the gusts, when cruising on any point of sail; its not what long distance cruising is all about.

    Please don't think I am saying all long keeled boats are bad - I am just arguing for a sense of proportion over the long keeled issue - and to show that a long keel is not essential for deep water cruising.

    Of course all Jeaneau/Gibsea etc owners are going to suggest that I have implied that their boats are rubbish. I am NOT saying that - but its horses for courses.
    Wishing things away is not effective.

  5. #115
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    Robin is offline Registered User
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    Oi you, our Jeanneau Sun Legende 41 was a dream to sail in all weathers, two up, so is our friends Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40 which was designed for the Transat two handed race before selling in cruiser/racer form over 1,000.

    Generalisations, harumph!
    Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and without any warranty!

  6. #116
    john_morris_uk is online now Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin View Post
    Oi you, our Jeanneau Sun Legende 41 was a dream to sail in all weathers, two up, so is our friends Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40 which was designed for the Transat two handed race before selling in cruiser/racer form over 1,000.

    Generalisations, harumph!
    Whoops! My apologies, and I agree - I forgot to point out that generalisations are rubbish. The the poster had said that he'd tried lots of fin keeled boats and they all misbehaved - hence my comment that he had not tried the right ones!
    Wishing things away is not effective.

  7. #117
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    Long fin keel, deep bilges, Spade rudder with 3" SS Shaft, Narrow and deep with low windage and encapsulated keel. All bunks are on water level.

    Fin keels can be very sensible. Most high production ones are built to be cheap and good in light conditions, when most people do most of their sailing.

  8. #118
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    Just to keep the pot boiling, wklein's plan above looks delightful, but might roll sickeningly downwind. Not good on a trade wind passage.
    Next time, it'll all be different.

  9. #119
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    The perfect profile,





    But I am biased
    Last edited by Vara; 23-02-12 at 18:34.
    Formerly known as colmce.
    http://www.seafieldfarmcottages.co.uk

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by flaming View Post
    Does anyone have any experience of ocean crossing with twin rudders? A lot of the pros of long keels seems to be their tracking ability, an effect which is often replicated, especially off the wind, by modern boats of the Elan 350 / 450 type with a big bottom and twin rudders.
    Arent all the 'open' series of yachts - Minis, 40s, 60s, 70s - basically that design? Those are the (monohull) vehicle of choice for the pro ocean racers these days.

    I've not crossed an ocean in one but one of the most exhilariting deliveries I've done was skippering an Open 40 from the Hamble to Wicklow. Avg 10 kts once we got round Lands End and had the wind on the beam - then again, I heard that particular boat started to delaminate some time afterwards - so ocean crossing, NO.
    If you're not confused, you're probably misinformed

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