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  1. #321
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    What does "stalling out" mean in the context of these posts? I've never heard this expression before. I'm a firm supporter of the "heavy displacement long keel is best for passagemaking" arguments (one of the entrenched, I'm afraid), but I wouldn't start to claim my little V27 was more manouverable in close quarters situations than a comparable sized modern fin and skeg design, which is why I'm curious what the term means.

    Cheers, Brian.

  2. #322
    john_morris_uk is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by flaming View Post
    What a strange argument this has become!

    All keels stall, some more readily than others. However, I wouldn't put a non stalling keel at the top of the list, even when it comes to manouverability in confined spaces under sail. For that requirement, I'd put turning circle first.

    Very often pre start manouvers involve being able to hold the boat head to wind for extended periods, or creep forward slowly, waiting for the right time to "pull the trigger" and go for it.
    I don't recall ever thinking "wow, this would be so much easier if I had a long keel".
    I agree - I have just re-read the latter posts and the arguments had become slightly silly.

    However I really do object to the proposal that long keeled boats are easier to maneuver at close quarters. Their asset that is plaudited, that is, their ability to sail in a straight line, is a pain in the backside when tacking and gybing through moorings or into an anchorage let alone a marina berth.

    (Regarding the latter, please note we don't spend much time in Marinas at the moment and we certainly don't intend to spend much time in Marinas when we are off round the world...)
    Wishing things away is not effective.

  3. #323
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    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    I sailed an ex baltic trader once with a very traditional long keel. We could go sideways with the best of them. I also suspect that there was more keel area on the Nicholson 55 than there was on the trader which was rather bigger....

    So long keel doesn't always mean more area - and I suggest that long keels can stall out just as well as fin keeled ones.
    You are absolutely right - a long keeler can stall out just as well as a fin (your earlier statement said that well designed fin keels do not stall but no matter- so many smokescreens - Baltic Traders?? your last post going off at a tangent..long keels dont always mean more area - thats a desperate argument - you talk about well designed fin keelers and I have not allowed to respond with well designed long keelers) but a well designed longkeeler has more lateral resistance - almost by definition - I'm talking about slow speed manoeuverability (would you believe) - where lateral resistance is king- This is an important consideration for a bluewater boat - we read of so many of these boats holed up in obscure ports waiting for engine spares because of doubts over the boats ability to manoeuvre in close quaters situations under sail and so unable to get to more apropriate ports).

    So to summarise - a well designed fin keeler is brilliant at many things - over a long keeler but not all things - which was your point. Where the longkeeler is better just might be very important to the boatowner - as in my argument above.

    You have called me deluded but can I assure you that my points are based on experience having owned 21 yachts and sailed numerous others. I have sailed over a thousand times in the last eight years alone - everyone doing what I like doing - close quarters manoeuvering under sail. If this is what you like to do then there is a good argument for a long keeler.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin View Post
    I disagree, having sailed our Sun Legende some 18,000mls in all weathers with just us two wrinklies, that it isn't well balanced. I pointed out in another reply that the pilot on ours had an irritating little trick of switching itself to standby unasked, sometimes not for 24hrs, sometimes twice in an hour. Very often the boat would sail herself for quite some time before we even questioned if something had changed, irrespective of being on or off the wind.
    Please read my post again - I did not say that Sun Legende was unbalanced or isn't well balanced ..... just that one particular design is particularly well balanced in comparison! In the same way I would say that the V34 is better balanced than a Rustler 36. The Sun Legende for it's design it is a very good boat!
    Last edited by E39mad; 29-02-12 at 12:06.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisedwards View Post
    This is an important consideration for a bluewater boat - we read of so many of these boats holed up in obscure ports waiting for engine spares because of doubts over the boats ability to manoeuvre in close quaters situations under sail and so unable to get to more apropriate ports).
    Surely in most cases this is more a statement over the confidence of the skipper to manouver in close quaters than the boat...?

    And are you seriously saying that if you were entered into a "close quaters manouvering under sail" competition you would choose a long keeled, heavy displacement boat as your weapon of choice....?
    You never know, I might be right!

  6. #326
    Minn's Avatar
    Minn is offline Registered User
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    Knowing what the boat will do is what matters most - but whilst I used to sail my Dragon into and out of marina berths (and yes she would be my weapon of choice!) I would not try that with the gaff cutter...

  7. #327
    Twister_Ken's Avatar
    Twister_Ken is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by flaming View Post
    Surely in most cases this is more a statement over the confidence of the skipper to manouver in close quaters than the boat...?

    And are you seriously saying that if you were entered into a "close quaters manouvering under sail" competition you would choose a long keeled, heavy displacement boat as your weapon of choice....?
    Don't want to put words in Chris's mouth, but a good long keeper is very predictable and will let you place her on a sixpence. If you were trying to sail through a fleet of racing dinghies, she wouldn't be as responsive as a narrow chord keel, but for planned manoeuvres, knowing you're going to end up where you aimed is very reassuring.
    Next time, it'll all be different.

  8. #328
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    It's when the keel no longer acts as a hydrofoil, opposing leeway. When the keel stalls leeway increases dramatically -- it's really noticeable when maneuvering in close quarters as you have plenty to judge your movement against. It's not just about lateral resistance.

    The lift and stalling characteristics of a keel depends on a bunch of things, of which I understand about 10%. But I THINK keels with high aspect ratios (essentially deep and narrow i.e. a fin) tend to be able to point higher while maintaining lift than those with low aspect ratios. However, keels which don't have a large surface area (arguably more likely to be a fin than a long keel) can stall at lower speeds. So it's swings and roundabouts to some extent.

    I don't know enough about specific boats to really comment, but I remember trying to do manoeuvres in a Bavaria under mainsail and maintaining lift while going upwind was a total nightmare at any speed. That had a fin.

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by E39mad View Post
    Please read my post again - I did not say that Sun Legende was unbalanced or isn't well balanced ..... just that one particular design is particularly well balanced in comparison! In the same way I would say that the V34 is better balanced than a Rustler 36. The Sun Legende for it's design it is a very good boat!
    OK understood. Please forgive me for not reading your reply properly as I'm in house selling mode at present with a previous viewer coming back for a second look in a couple of hours and 'bringing his builder', hopefully to increase his first offer a tad, but then it might be to go the other way. It tends to make me a little stressed.
    Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and without any warranty!

  10. #330
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    Close handling manners of importance in a bluewater boat? Surely much more important in a marina hopper which doesn't spend weeks at sea doing no close handling whatsoever.

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