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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conachair View Post
    As for the speed thing, thinking back to the cruisers I hung around with, speed wasn't that big a deal. The boat has to be so many things at the same time that it's difficult to be able to look at any one aspect in isolation. And quite often the boat is the one you've got, not the one you'd like to have. Everyone likes to get their boats sailing well but a good passage is one where nothing broke! Cruisers tend to be cautious sailors. Catching a fish or 3 would gain points towards a good passage as well. But taking a day or 2 longer across an ocean really isn't that big a deal, it's cheaper out there for one thing.

    So ignore it all and get a boat you feel safe in

    Couldn't agree more with the above.

  2. #32
    Twister_Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy_o_g View Post
    I've always thought that the main advantage of a long-keeler was that it gave you an excellent excuse for c**king up your berthing
    Berthing was easy. It was unberthing which could be interesting. Quite miss it now I have a boat that does what I want when I knock it into reverse.
    Next time, it'll all be different.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sybarite View Post
    I don't have a position on this but the late Philippe Harlé, one of France's leading naval architects used to say that a skeg was a nonsense. He said that if it took a hit it could block the rudder. However if the rudder itself took the hit it might bend the stock but the rudder might remain operational.
    FWIW.
    I had long heard this argument, which was even more against the skeg - that with a strong impact, such as a hard grounding on rock or semi-submersible container, it was a potential leverage point to breach a hull's watertight integrity because it would normally be bonded in and result in a massive hole just where it could be difficult to access.

    Far better in that scenario would be a spade rudder that gets bent out of true - perhaps not much more good as a rudder but not catastrophic and time to lash the oar, or whatever, overboard for emergency steering.

    Well, it comforted me at the time that I had a boat with a spade rudder.

  4. #34
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    Would it be fair to say a long-keeler of 'n' feet is going to be heavier than a fin and skeg boat of equal length? I'd say it was more than likely.

    That's where long-keelers can score on long ocean passages. A ton or more of food, water and gear as a % of displacement is negligible to a long-keeler, but could put a more modern, lighter, fine-keeler way down on her marks.
    www.backbearing.com. Astronavigation resources.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seajet View Post
    Benjenbav,

    have a read of Sir Francis's books; he comes over as a brilliant navigator rather than sailor, but with an indomitable spirit I for one would not fancy going up against!- Try 'The Loneley Sea And The Sky', IMO one of the best books ever written - and there's a bit where he mentions working as a stoker and flattening someone who picked on him; Sir Francis was a fairly small chap,but then so was Nelson !

    Also try the book 'Gypsy Moth Circles The World' if referring to keel & hull designs, but 'The Lonely Sea And The Sky' is the all time classic,IMO of course but I know others who agree.
    Seajet. Thanks. That's the one that starts with the adder in the pocket? Anyway. I haven't got a copy at the moment so a few pounds will shortly be on their way to Amazon, I foresee.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by benjenbav View Post
    Seajet. Thanks. That's the one that starts with the adder in the pocket? Anyway. I haven't got a copy at the moment so a few pounds will shortly be on their way to Amazon, I foresee.
    benjenbav

    yes that's the one; should be mandatory reading for anyone under 14 and / or imigrants to Britain or Australia !

  7. #37
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    Interesting thread and I am not even going to bother arguing.
    I have owned a boat that was all ends and deep deep long keel, a bilge keeler, a fin and spade and currently a semi long keeler. All have behaved just fine at sea tho the longer keels are less forgiving in docking.
    Peering into the bilges today I see, an engine set quite low, a water tank, an anchor and some chain, two batteries perched on a platform, a sump at arms length. I suppose that that lot would have to go somewhere else in a finkeeler with possibly a leg on the motor.
    We all go to sea in what we own already, no?
    Why argue with a nautical wall? I just read the graffiti these days.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porthandbuoy View Post
    Would it be fair to say a long-keeler of 'n' feet is going to be heavier than a fin and skeg boat of equal length? I'd say it was more than likely.

    That's where long-keelers can score on long ocean passages. A ton or more of food, water and gear as a % of displacement is negligible to a long-keeler, but could put a more modern, lighter, fine-keeler way down on her marks.
    on the other hand, traditional designs with narrower hulls can actually require fewer tons per inch immersion than modern AWB designs, which thus can better cope with additional food, water and fuel - assuming there is somewhere to put it that won't impact on living amenities.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnac1e View Post
    I had long heard this argument, which was even more against the skeg - that with a strong impact, such as a hard grounding on rock or semi-submersible container, it was a potential leverage point to breach a hull's watertight integrity because it would normally be bonded in and result in a massive hole just where it could be difficult to access.

    Far better in that scenario would be a spade rudder that gets bent out of true - perhaps not much more good as a rudder but not catastrophic and time to lash the oar, or whatever, overboard for emergency steering.

    Well, it comforted me at the time that I had a boat with a spade rudder.
    Makes me even happier I have a long keel with a rudder off the transom Though hitting something would be a big worry just a spade rudder sticking down off the keel, something that would really have me worried all the time would be running over a huge fishing net with lots of floats and the net popping up between the keel and the spade then jamming in the little gap between the top of the rudder and the keel. That's not an "if" you run over a net like that, it's when. Offshore bluewater it's going to happen. Then you're a bit stuffed.Probably in the middle of a moonless nigfht a very long way from anywhere. At least with a skeg there's a chance the net will clear under the rudder. Or attach some 100Kg line between the skeg and fin keel to hopefully keep wayward ropes and nets clear but snap before doing any damage if you ground on uneven bottom.
    Lots of things to worry about. Just because other boats have made it doesn't mean you won't or shouldn't worry about these things.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpybear View Post
    on the other hand, traditional designs with narrower hulls can actually require fewer tons per inch immersion than modern AWB designs, which thus can better cope with additional food, water and fuel - assuming there is somewhere to put it that won't impact on living amenities.
    I think the Cutlass would be an example of what you mean. As far as I remember, it was lighter than fin keeled boats of the same size, like the Tomahawk because its hull was inherently stronger in shape.

    As far as sailing ability is concerned, I would be more concerned about a hull's balance under different conditions rather than its ability to track unaided, and as a mere offshore sailor rather than an ocean one I am happy to leave the rest up to my autopilot.
    Far away is near at hand in images of elsewhere

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