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  1. #41
    Wansworth is offline Registered User
    Location : SPAIN,Galicia
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    Eric Hiscock made the observation that his friend s thePyes who sailed n old convered 30 ft fishing smack always seemed happier and more rested on arrival.He put it down to the fact that the Pyes old tub didnt roll so much as his Wanderer and he commented he would have liked to have had more beam.A fast passage can be made with a boat that doesnt exhaust the crew with rolling.Both boats had long keels as thats what was considered the thing to have.

  2. #42
    john_morris_uk is online now Registered User
    Location : Near Exeter Boat is near Rhu.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conachair View Post
    Spade rudder maybe isn't the best example as I do think you'd be crazy to consider something like that as bluewater, not if you get caught in a net but when. Probably a few handred miles off a continent very far away.
    I think this is where we will have to agree to differ as our boat has a spade rudder (albeit with a dwarf bit of keel which extends back to 'protect' it.) I have few qualms about sailing our boat across oceans, and I guess we just have a different mindset. The rudder stock is massive and very over engineered and I have high confidence in its durability.

    I've caught nets in various things when afloat and its a pain in the backside. My problem is that its been when I have sailing long keeled boats as well as fin and rudder versions.
    Last edited by john_morris_uk; 20-02-12 at 17:48.
    Wishing things away is not effective.

  3. #43
    john_morris_uk is online now Registered User
    Location : Near Exeter Boat is near Rhu.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vara View Post
    I've sailed the the JSSC Victorias and found them to be pretty good boats, so I'm quite surprised at their comments.

    ( no spray hoods or auto helms though which is a bit of a bummer).
    I too have sailed the Vic 34's out of Gosport. Well found boats, but they are often referred to as the 'slugs'. No guesses why...
    Wishing things away is not effective.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conachair View Post
    Makes me even happier I have a long keel with a rudder off the transom Though hitting something would be a big worry just a spade rudder sticking down off the keel, something that would really have me worried all the time would be running over a huge fishing net with lots of floats and the net popping up between the keel and the spade then jamming in the little gap between the top of the rudder and the keel. That's not an "if" you run over a net like that, it's when. Offshore bluewater it's going to happen. Then you're a bit stuffed.Probably in the middle of a moonless nigfht a very long way from anywhere. At least with a skeg there's a chance the net will clear under the rudder. Or attach some 100Kg line between the skeg and fin keel to hopefully keep wayward ropes and nets clear but snap before doing any damage if you ground on uneven bottom.
    Lots of things to worry about. Just because other boats have made it doesn't mean you won't or shouldn't worry about these things.
    Think perhaps there is more imagination at work here rather than real evidence. There are now thousands of boats sailing offshore with spade rudders - almost certainly now more than long keel - but no real evidence that rudder problems or fouling have dramatically increased.

    I have picked up net in my long keel seizing the engine and temporarily jamming the rudder. Not pleasant. I have also run over nets and picked up pot buoys with my spade rudder boat and been able to free them without getting caught.

    So, I think there are just as many potential problems picking up debris with all kinds of underwater profiles. Many problems can be solved with a good rope cutter as it is usually the prop or shaft that picks up nets, plastic bags etc.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranona View Post
    Think perhaps there is more imagination at work here rather than real evidence.
    Possibly, happened to 2 of our little gaggle coming up from Brazil to Caribbean so very small sample size. But sounded deeply scarey, getting bashed on the head by a boat in big swells in the middle of the night trying to cut away a fishing net from the rudder. Gettting caught round a net/rope or engine failure were the two most common calamity stories.

    I have picked up net in my long keel seizing the engine and temporarily jamming the rudder. Not pleasant. I have also run over nets and picked up pot buoys with my spade rudder boat and been able to free them without getting caught.
    How did that happen? I've always felt a bit safer with long keel, prop tucked away in an aperture between the rudder and keel. But there's always more to learn.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    I think this is where we will have to agree to differ as our boat has a spade rudder (albeit with a dwarf bit of keel which extends back to 'protect' it.) I have few qualms about sailing our boat across oceans, and I guess we just have a different mindset. The rudder stock is massive and very over engineered and I have high confidence in its durability.

    I've caught nets in various things when afloat and its a pain in the backside. My problem is that its been when I have sailing long keeled boats as well as fin and rudder versions.
    I can't quite see how that works What is there for the net to get caught on? I've always felt relatively safe.

    And each to they're own with the rudders. But I couldn't do it. Prospect of maybe a month offshore with nothing else to do but have a mild worry of what could go wrong would be too much.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conachair View Post
    How did that happen?
    I once cruised across the channel in company with a Rustler 32. They picked up some fishing net which rendered their steering FUBAR. In spite of spirited attempts to free it they had to get lifted out to cut it away with a knife. Not sure you can draw any general conclusions from that but it clearly can happen.

  8. #48
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    The fin v long keel argument is pretty much like the anchor debates - people generally advocate what they have themselves.

    One thing that really distorts the arguments is displacement. You seldom if ever see a light displacement long keeler but some of the supposed benefits of long keels are really benefits of heavy displacement. A straight comparison of a well-designed heavy fin keeler and a long keeler of similar displacement would I'm sure produce a quite different view.
    One hull good, two hulls better.

  9. #49
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    I'm surprised that no-one has yet submitted the argument that longkeelers are easier to manoeuvre in close quarters under sail. We all sail for different reasons but If you do not like using the engine then keel stall and lateral resistance at low speed become key considerations.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowleopard View Post
    The fin v long keel argument is pretty much like the anchor debates - people generally advocate what they have themselves.

    One thing that really distorts the arguments is displacement. You seldom if ever see a light displacement long keeler but some of the supposed benefits of long keels are really benefits of heavy displacement. A straight comparison of a well-designed heavy fin keeler and a long keeler of similar displacement would I'm sure produce a quite different view.
    A Tumlare is a long keel light displacement design,(1900kg on 27 LOA) oh and its a double ender with a keel hung rudder, Adlard Coles had a little one and then a bigger one.......seemed to do alright in those.

    I thinks it each and every one to their own

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