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Thread: advice about papers for my yacht
22-03-12, 05:48 #141
22-03-12, 05:52 #142
22-03-12, 05:54 #143
You might as well argue you can't use a camera in public in the UK because countless policemen have been videoed falsely telling people filming is illegal.
22-03-12, 06:03 #144
It MUST exist because you say it's been clairified, so point to it. Or explain why if you can't.
22-03-12, 09:21 #145
Toad, Tim and Supporters.
I believe your difference from others arises from the belief that it is the law that matters, not the implementation of the law. It's worth re-reading the HMRC approach to these matters. I've chosen the section on importing boats to UK, which isn't the actual case you're arguing, but the point about Law and it's implementation is well made:1.4 What law covers this notice?
The legislation upon which this notice is based is:
The Customs and Excise Management Act (1979) (CEMA);
The Pleasure Craft (Arrival and Report) Regulations made under CEMA sections 35(4) and 42(1)(a);
Commissioner’s Directions made under CEMA sections 35(1) and 64(2);
Council Regulation (EEC) 2913/92 establishing the Community Customs Code;
Commission Regulation (EEC) 2454/93, which lays down the provision for implementation of the Community Customs Code;
EC law on import VAT and VAT on vessels leaving the UK is contained in Council Directive 2006/112/EC, which is interpreted into UK law in the Value Added Tax Act 1994 and Value Added Tax Regulations 1995.
Other VAT directives may also apply.
This notice is not the law. It is HM Revenue & Customs' (HMRC’s) view of the law and nothing in this notice takes the place of the law.
Now HMRC are good enough to publish how they implement the law in some detail, as are many UK and US enforcement institutions. Many European countries don't, especially those whose background lies in the Napoleonic code. Implementation then lies in the chain of authority, and it is often, as a result, far more variable in quality.
So don't look for the law. Look, instead, for the chain of authority whose task is to implement the law and ask for their views and instructions. Now, that's been done, and you disagree with the view given.
Fine. The appropriate step now is for you to challenge their view through the appeal process. But please don't question sound advice given to newbies asking for guidance.
Best of luck
Last edited by jimbaerselman; 22-03-12 at 09:23.JimB
http://jimbsail.info helps Skippers plan Europe Cruises
22-03-12, 11:02 #146Registered User
Location : Poole
- Join Date
- Jan 2003
Good post, I mention Bloc Marine because it is guidance to the Documents that French authorities expect French boats to carry and hence British Boats. Again it demonstrates more how they administer the laws than prove the actual Law/Act that they quote. Has anyone done a Translation of the relevant sections?
I think the French are particularly active in ports such as Carteret as the CI are so near and its possible for boats based in the CI to fly a British Ensign and I believe it is not unknown for French owners to leave their boat in the CI to avoid French Taxes. Previous disputes (incl a French Trawler kidnapping a CI Fisheries officer and depositing him in a French Port) may have aggravated the situation.
With the attutudes displayed by some on here I am surprised the French are as welcoming as they usually are!
One thing I notice about Trolls is that they are provocative and insist on everyone else doing work to prove them wrong - unfortunately in the process they may give inexperienced sailors the wrong advice. I maintain my position - follow the RYA advice and you will encounter no problem.
Unfortunately Red Diesel may be another can of worms that neither the British Government nor the RYA seem able to sort out!
Last edited by Sailfree; 22-03-12 at 11:08.
22-03-12, 11:30 #147Registered User
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
I think the whole problem arises because certain people think that they are going to find specific words that say exactly what piece of paper is required by whom. All this does is show their ingnorance of how laws are drafted (in the UK as well as other countries). In this country we use either case law or regulations to establish the details of how a law is implemented or interpreted.
Another example to add to your VAT one. It is illegal to use a pleasure boat while under the influence of drink. It has been so for many years under local bye laws, and more recently under the Act of the early 2000s. What the Act does not do is define what being under the influence means - it will require regulations to be published that allow the authorities to decide who they can charge with a realistic chance of conviction and what the penalties might be. They could, of course bring charges now, but would have to rely on convincing the court to gain a conviction. As we know the government has so far failed to agree a set of regulations, so the law is not implemented.
As you rightly say in Napoleonic countries the implementation of the law is delegated through the relevant officials, and as we also know from many examples, implementation and interpretation can vary widely.
Clearly some people have difficulties with this concept, but as what they think has no bearing on what actually happens or what decisions others might make about their own behaviour, it is best just to ignore them.
22-03-12, 12:05 #148Registered User
Location : France
- Join Date
- Dec 2002
22-03-12, 12:07 #149
Five minutes online and 25 quid results in a SSR certificate landing on the mat a few days later. Can't see any reason not to do that and risk any problems.
22-03-12, 12:12 #150Registered User
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
Nothing has changed - and doubt that it will, least of all just because a couple of strange beings here don't accept the situation!