advice about papers for my yacht

[toad_oftoadhall]

If they don't get it after several hundred posts last year they won't get it now.

We're told the RYA hired a French Lawyer who was also unable to comprehend this.

[toad_oftoadhall]

I'm with you, Tim, a red (or otherwise) ensign (worn in compliance with MSA95) *is* an "act of nationality" - at least in my view.

Of course it's just as easy to get an SSR as it is to buy a Red Ensign and no more checks are made on you right to have the SSR than the Chandler would make to see if you had a right to a Red Ensign!

[toad_oftoadhall]

The French word "acte" means "certificate" in this context.

Who cares what acte means? I think you've already admitted above that there is no law - just the words of an enforcement guy who got his law wrong.

You might as well argue you can't use a camera in public in the UK because countless policemen have been videoed falsely telling people filming is illegal.

[toad_oftoadhall]

If they don't get it after several hundred posts last year they won't get it now. I have better things to do with my time.

Wouldn't the quickest way for us to "get it" be for eyou to simply post the legislation?

It MUST exist because you say it's been clairified, so point to it. Or explain why if you can't.

The procedure for tenders is dealt with elsewhere.

Please point forumites to the procedure fo Tenders, or explain why if you can't do that.

[jimbaerselman]

Toad, Tim and Supporters.

I believe your difference from others arises from the belief that it is the law that matters, not the implementation of the law. It's worth re-reading the HMRC approach to these matters. I've chosen the section on importing boats to UK, which isn't the actual case you're arguing, but the point about Law and it's implementation is well made:

1.4 What law covers this notice?

The legislation upon which this notice is based is:

The Customs and Excise Management Act (1979) (CEMA);
The Pleasure Craft (Arrival and Report) Regulations made under CEMA sections 35(4) and 42(1)(a);
Commissioner’s Directions made under CEMA sections 35(1) and 64(2);
Council Regulation (EEC) 2913/92 establishing the Community Customs Code;
Commission Regulation (EEC) 2454/93, which lays down the provision for implementation of the Community Customs Code;
EC law on import VAT and VAT on vessels leaving the UK is contained in Council Directive 2006/112/EC, which is interpreted into UK law in the Value Added Tax Act 1994 and Value Added Tax Regulations 1995.

Other VAT directives may also apply.

This notice is not the law. It is HM Revenue & Customs' (HMRC’s) view of the law and nothing in this notice takes the place of the law.

My emphasis. The next paragraph then goes on to tell you what to do if your view differs from HMRC's view.

Now HMRC are good enough to publish how they implement the law in some detail, as are many UK and US enforcement institutions. Many European countries don't, especially those whose background lies in the Napoleonic code. Implementation then lies in the chain of authority, and it is often, as a result, far more variable in quality.

So don't look for the law. Look, instead, for the chain of authority whose task is to implement the law and ask for their views and instructions. Now, that's been done, and you disagree with the view given.

Fine. The appropriate step now is for you to challenge their view through the appeal process. But please don't question sound advice given to newbies asking for guidance.

Best of luck

[Sailfree]

Toad, Tim and Supporters.

I believe your difference from others arises from the belief that it is the law that matters, not the implementation of the law. It's worth re-reading the HMRC approach to these matters. I've chosen the section on importing boats to UK, which isn't the actual case you're arguing, but the point about Law and it's implementation is well made:
My emphasis. The next paragraph then goes on to tell you what to do if your view differs from HMRC's view.

Now HMRC are good enough to publish how they implement the law in some detail, as are many UK and US enforcement institutions. Many European countries don't, especially those whose background lies in the Napoleonic code. Implementation then lies in the chain of authority, and it is often, as a result, far more variable in quality.

So don't look for the law. Look, instead, for the chain of authority whose task is to implement the law and ask for their views and instructions. Now, that's been done, and you disagree with the view given.

Fine. The appropriate step now is for you to challenge their view through the appeal process. But please don't question sound advice given to newbies asking for guidance.

Best of luck

Jim

Good post, I mention Bloc Marine because it is guidance to the Documents that French authorities expect French boats to carry and hence British Boats. Again it demonstrates more how they administer the laws than prove the actual Law/Act that they quote. Has anyone done a Translation of the relevant sections?

I think the French are particularly active in ports such as Carteret as the CI are so near and its possible for boats based in the CI to fly a British Ensign and I believe it is not unknown for French owners to leave their boat in the CI to avoid French Taxes. Previous disputes (incl a French Trawler kidnapping a CI Fisheries officer and depositing him in a French Port) may have aggravated the situation.

With the attutudes displayed by some on here I am surprised the French are as welcoming as they usually are!

One thing I notice about Trolls is that they are provocative and insist on everyone else doing work to prove them wrong - unfortunately in the process they may give inexperienced sailors the wrong advice. I maintain my position - follow the RYA advice and you will encounter no problem.

Unfortunately Red Diesel may be another can of worms that neither the British Government nor the RYA seem able to sort out!

[Tranona]

So don't look for the law. Look, instead, for the chain of authority whose task is to implement the law and ask for their views and instructions. Now, that's been done, and you disagree with the view given.

Fine. The appropriate step now is for you to challenge their view through the appeal process. But please don't question sound advice given to newbies asking for guidance.

Best of luck

Well put, Jim.

I think the whole problem arises because certain people think that they are going to find specific words that say exactly what piece of paper is required by whom. All this does is show their ingnorance of how laws are drafted (in the UK as well as other countries). In this country we use either case law or regulations to establish the details of how a law is implemented or interpreted.

Another example to add to your VAT one. It is illegal to use a pleasure boat while under the influence of drink. It has been so for many years under local bye laws, and more recently under the Act of the early 2000s. What the Act does not do is define what being under the influence means - it will require regulations to be published that allow the authorities to decide who they can charge with a realistic chance of conviction and what the penalties might be. They could, of course bring charges now, but would have to rely on convincing the court to gain a conviction. As we know the government has so far failed to agree a set of regulations, so the law is not implemented.

As you rightly say in Napoleonic countries the implementation of the law is delegated through the relevant officials, and as we also know from many examples, implementation and interpretation can vary widely.

Clearly some people have difficulties with this concept, but as what they think has no bearing on what actually happens or what decisions others might make about their own behaviour, it is best just to ignore them.

[Sybarite]

As you rightly say in Napoleonic countries the implementation of the law is delegated through the relevant officials, and as we also know from many examples, implementation and interpretation can vary widely.

.

From the specific discussions that I have had on at least 4 occasions ( boat show stand representatives or direct from the HQ) what is constant is that they wish to see proof of the flag. As far as the UK is concerned they have defined this as meaning the registration document issued by the competent authority ie the SSR or the Part 1.

[PaulGooch]

Five minutes online and 25 quid results in a SSR certificate landing on the mat a few days later. Can't see any reason not to do that and risk any problems.

[Tranona]

From the specific discussions that I have had on at least 4 occasions ( boat show stand representatives or direct from the HQ) what is constant is that they wish to see proof of the flag. As far as the UK is concerned they have defined this as meaning the registration document issued by the competent authority ie the SSR or the Part 1.

Exactly right, and this is not a new position - dates back to the early 1980s when our government introduced the SSR to allow UK yachtsmen to meet this requirement.

Nothing has changed - and doubt that it will, least of all just because a couple of strange beings here don't accept the situation!