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  1. #211
    toad_oftoadhall's Avatar
    toad_oftoadhall is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranona View Post
    The answer to your question is already there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranona View Post
    I am not the right person to ask.
    How can you not know an answer that is there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tranona View Post
    You could also follow up the leads you have been given to the list of documents required and penalties for non-compliance given in Bloc Marine. Whilst not necessarily being a definitive document it will at least demonstrate to you that nobody is "making things up". Bloc has been publishing this information for many years, so you would think that if it is incorrect somebody would have corrected it by now. Seems there are lots of avenues you could explore without imposing on other people here.
    Why would anyone need to do that if the answer's already there???

    For the obvious reason, welcome to a lengthy spell on my ignore list, moron.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by toad_oftoadhall View Post
    For the obvious reason, welcome to a lengthy spell on my ignore list, moron.
    I'm sure he will lose a lot of sleep over that!

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by toad_oftoadhall View Post

    welcome to a lengthy spell on my ignore list, moron.
    Another witty response from the master debator.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by toad_oftoadhall View Post
    How can you not know an answer that is there?



    Why would anyone need to do that if the answer's already there???

    For the obvious reason, welcome to a lengthy spell on my ignore list, moron.
    One final time.

    You have already been told ad nauseum by others what the answer is.

    Your inability to accept it is YOUR problem nobody elses.

    It pains me to see somebody getting so worked up about something that does not directly affect them and over which they have no control.

    Pleases me no end to be on your "ignore" list. Probably a good idea if you also stop being offensive and recognise that you are never going to get anywhere in your fruitless quest if you are unwilling to believe what you are told.

  5. #215
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    I really have difficulty understanding the mentality of a Troll. They are just argumentative and try to wind up other people to complete any work and jump through hoops and frequently misquote other posters or give statements a meaning that was never intended.

    Yet from their use of english they appear educated and intelligent.

    I had the same problem understanding vandalism and graffiti in the lifts at University.

    I do wonder how they ever find employment if their Troll attitude extends into their professional working life as they certainly appear to never produce anything productive themselves.

    Fortunately the majority on here try to be helpful and that makes this a worthwhile forum.

  6. #216
    rotrax is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailfree View Post
    I really have difficulty understanding the mentality of a Troll. They are just argumentative and try to wind up other people to complete any work and jump through hoops and frequently misquote other posters or give statements a meaning that was never intended.

    Yet from their use of english they appear educated and intelligent.

    I had the same problem understanding vandalism and graffiti in the lifts at University.

    I do wonder how they ever find employment if their Troll attitude extends into their professional working life as they certainly appear to never produce anything productive themselves.

    Fortunately the majority on here try to be helpful and that makes this a worthwhile forum.
    I wonder who you mean...................

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailfree View Post
    I really have difficulty understanding the mentality of a Troll. They are just argumentative and try to wind up other people to complete any work and jump through hoops and frequently misquote other posters or give statements a meaning that was never intended.

    Yet from their use of english they appear educated and intelligent.

    I had the same problem understanding vandalism and graffiti in the lifts at University.

    I do wonder how they ever find employment if their Troll attitude extends into their professional working life as they certainly appear to never produce anything productive themselves.

    Fortunately the majority on here try to be helpful and that makes this a worthwhile forum.
    From Wikipedia:
    Troll: "In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum"

    Forumites can decide from themselves which posts in this thread are inflammatory, extraneous & off-topic and which are succinctly sticking to the topic and absent of ad hom attacks. (For instance, I've quoted your little essay on trolls in full as a textbook example of a post which fully meets all the criteria of a troll!)

    Anyway it sounds like henceforth we can look forward to some concise, clear, relevant, factual posts, so here's three questions to bring us squarely back on topic:

    1) Do you still claim that the RYA told you their legal expert couldn't find any law that could be used to convict a yacht unable to provide an original Reg document?

    2) To the best of your knowledge is there any legislation specified in the Bloc Marine that could be used to convict a UK flagged boat in France with no original reg document? (If there is please identify it.)

    3) Tranona says the answer is already in this thread. Is the answer is already in this thread? If so what is it?
    Last edited by toad_oftoadhall; 26-03-12 at 18:10.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by toad_oftoadhall View Post
    1) Do you still claim that the RYA told you their legal expert couldn't find any law that could be used to convict a yacht unable to provide an original Reg document?
    The above is typical of the way you misrepresent previous posts. Below is my original post which included the RYA reponse which never stated that the French Lawyer couldn't find any Law.

    Other info is also included


    1. Original Post from previous thread 2nd March 2011 quoting RYA response

    "I pointed out the discussion on this Forum to the RYA and as an RYA member asked the RYA to respond to the following questions.

    Q1. Under French regulations do British Flagged boats need to carry the original boat registration documents?

    Q2. If the answer is yes under what regulation please and what is the range of fine?

    Q3. Are you aware of any fines being levied on British boats by the French Authorities?


    I have now received a detailed response that the RYA got by employing a French Lawyer. As it was RYA members money that employed the lawyer they ask that it is not posted on a public forum but in response to my further request they agreed I could publish the following guidance:-

    “Strictly speaking, therefore, a British vessel navigating outside UK territorial waters need not be registered but it must be in a position to produce proof of its nationality. In French territorial waters, the vessel must carry on board original documentation that proves its nationality. For all practical purposes, the simplest and most effective way of proving nationality is by producing the original Certificate of British Registry”

    together with a link to the full explanation on the RYA web-site on a page which can be accessed by RYA members only at: http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/boa...francereg.aspx

    The detailed response basically confirms various points in Sybarites , Tranona & Michael Chapmans posts that the French expect to see original registration papers from their own citizens and also expect it from other countries which for the UK is an SSR or Part 1 documentation. I believe the French are reasonable and may accept other documentation but at their own discretion.

    The RYA are aware of boats being fined.

    I always followed the RYA advice as I understood it but never looked up their original website text. I would be interested if another RYA member that has could now do so again and let us know if any of the advice wording has now been slightly modified /expanded in response to the French lawyers answers that gave chapter and verse.

    Many knock the RYA but frankly IMHO the perform far better and more efficiently than many UK government organisations and I sincerely hope our government continue to allow them to be the unofficial body for leisure sailors as I for one would hate to see the DLVA or similar operating ICC, DS, YM qualifications etc

    For those that want to challenge the RYA advice I suggest you do it directly with the French authorities"


    2. From RYA Website available to all.

    Original paperwork for your boat including registration document- fines can be levied if these documents are invalid or incorrect.

    You won’t need to clear customs or immigration, but French customs have the right to, and often will, check your paperwork.



    3. A quick google shows that France has in the past exercised its right to fine boats without original ships papers proving nationality as from littleshipclub.co.uk/files/images/Booklet%20part%202.pdf.

    "Additional comments from Brian Humber re documents.
    Have not been inspected in France for equipment, flares and service dates etc but certainly have been asked to show Original ships papers/passports/insurance and log book on many
    occasions in ports from Fecamp to La Rochell, and once at sea, always very politely and courteously even at at 0200hrs. ( I had been to Cherbourg two weekends in a row and they
    were looking for illegal immigrant smugglers) A marked contrast to the UK border agency/customs. Photocopies were not accepted and the first time it cost me 1,000 FF on the spot fine or I was invited politely to argue my case with the magistrate ashore the next morning if I so wished."


    4. Out of interest I quickly google info for Belgium and from this source http://brussels.angloinfo.com/inform...29/sailing.asp I copy the following.

    The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) sets out a framework for the use of open waters. Once in Belgian territorial waters a ship is under coastal state law and must therefore comply with the laws of that country rather than those of its flag state.
    Ship's Papers
    Those arriving in Belgian waters without the necessary documentation may have their craft impounded by Belgian Customs officials and may be subject to a heavy fine.
    • Registration Document - Anyone sailing or driving and towing a boat to Belgium will need a Registration Document for the vessel
    • Evidence of adequate insurance cover, with a translation, which the insurer should be able to provide
    • Evidence that VAT has been paid - EU residents can use a boat within the EU only if it is VAT paid or deemed to be VAT paid. Although technically not part of a ship's papers, this documentation is required to prove that a boat may move freely within the EU
    • Any vessel built or imported into the EEA after June 1998 must have proof that it is RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) compliant. The manufacturer should have provided this documentation with the vessel



    Conclusion.

    It therefore appears that both France and Belgium interpret UNLCOS to require that a boat registration document is required and a fine would be levied if one is requested and not produced.


    I repeat from my earlier post “For those that want to challenge the RYA advice I suggest you do it directly with the French authorities” and not on here misleading others. Please go to France Toad and challenge them instead of misleading others on this Forum.

    Toad troll on!
    Last edited by Sailfree; 26-03-12 at 19:16.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailfree View Post
    a British vessel navigating outside UK territorial waters need not be registered
    Quote Originally Posted by Sailfree View Post
    The RYA are aware of boats being fined.
    Hard to square those two statements.




    Please answer questions 2 & 3.

    2) To the best of your knowledge is there any legislation specified in the Bloc Marine that could be used to convict a UK flagged boat in France with no original reg document? (If there is please identify it.)

    3) Tranona says the answer is already in this thread. Is the answer is already in this thread? If so what is it?

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailfree View Post
    You won’t need to clear customs or immigration, but French customs have the right to, and often will, check your paperwork.
    British Police Customs also have the right to check paperwork! Is registration legally required here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailfree View Post
    3. A quick google shows that France has in the past exercised its right to fine boats without original ships papers proving nationality as from littleshipclub.co.uk/files/images/Booklet%20part%202.pdf.
    Sorry I missed this on the first pass. If Brian Humber could be convinced to specify the offence it would crack this wide open.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailfree View Post
    4. Out of interest I quickly google info for Belgium
    Shall we find the legislation for France before we start on Belgium?



    EDIT: Brian Humber rang a bell and here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/member.php?u=116 I wonder.... PM sent.
    EDIT2: It is: http://littleshipclub.co.uk/content/...pass-marmalade
    EDIT3: I F'ing love Barracudas.
    Last edited by toad_oftoadhall; 26-03-12 at 20:15. Reason: Added EDIT & EDIT2 & EDIT3.

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