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  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by al.carpenter View Post
    "weight of opinion" has nothing to do with the outcome...
    Just to clarify. Opinion is important because opinion and belief underpin decisions. Therefore if somebody believes there is a chance that lack of registration document may lead to trouble and perhaps a fine then that will affect their decision. As to Outcome - the desired outcome is a trouble free visit.

    So you have a choice - don't have the document and run the risk of difficulties, or have the document and the certain outcome is that you will not have difficulties.

    That only changes if the possibility of trouble and a fine is proved to be unfounded, and so far it has not, despite all your, Toad's and Tim's efforts. They are not enough to counter years of contrary advice, confirmation from the Douanes head office and personal experiences of varying veracity.

    I guess the only thing that might change peoples' opinions is maybe a letter signed by N Sarkozy promising not to fine transgressors - although in these troubled times even that may not be enough.

    So, in the meantime all the doubters will go with the certainty card - and have the usual great time in France (those that can still afford it, that is).

  2. #422
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    so, Mr Smith who is English and lives eleven months a year in Australia (so is not a UK resident hence cannot have his yacht on the SSRegister) and 4 weeks on his yacht moored in Great Yarmouth cannot sail to France while in Europe for his holidays? I guess he can sail to Limboland...
    Nothing in the mail from our Lord Sarkosy's Customs Services stating the need for SSR, sorry... and my french is pretty good. Please take your phone and talk to any custom officer from anywhere and hear for yourself.
    Ask the italian owners of under ten metres to explain why they cannot show a register paper when sailing french waters....
    Last edited by al.carpenter; 02-04-12 at 23:22.
    Traditional Boatyards are not the only place you find thick planks...

  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamM376 View Post
    As far as customs, police, marinas and are concerned, they are quite content at a glance to read in fairly large print "Certificate of British Registry", "Register of British Ships Part 111" and "Details of Registered Ownership" followed by names. They don't seem to spot the small print at the top which clearly states "This Certificate is not proof of legal ownership".

    As you say, no checks are made on ownership or, UK residence when applying for Part 3 whereas in most countries ID papers have to be produced when registering as happens with cars so I assume they think we operate in the same fashion.
    The various customs people I have spoken to say they want to see the "justification du pavillon". Proof of the right to wear the flag. Because this can have tax implications.

  4. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by al.carpenter View Post
    so, Mr Smith who is English and lives eleven months a year in Australia (so is not a UK resident hence cannot have his yacht on the SSRegister) and 4 weeks on his yacht moored in Great Yarmouth cannot sail to France while in Europe for his holidays? I guess he can sail to Limboland...
    Nothing in the mail from our Lord Sarkosy's Customs Services stating the need for SSR, sorry... and my french is pretty good. Please take your phone and talk to any custom officer from anywhere and hear for yourself.
    Ask the italian owners of under ten metres to explain why they cannot show a register paper when sailing french waters....
    You need to re-read their letter and this time, try understanding it. You may be French but apparently you still have trouble. To make it easy for you look at this paragraph:

    Au cas particulier, s'agissant du pavillon britannique, le propriétaire et/ou utilisateur du navire a bien la possibilité de se voir délivrer par les autorités britanniques un certificat d'enregistrement qui va lui permettre de circuler dans les eaux territoriales françaises et de justifier ainsi de la nationalité de son pavillon.

    To repeat yet again :

    Which British authorities can issue a registration certificate?
    Which will allow British boats to sail in French waters?
    And thus justify the nationality of the flag?
    What would you call that (or those) document(s)?

    Contact the HQ. They outrank your local people.
    Last edited by Sybarite; 02-04-12 at 23:49.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by al.carpenter View Post
    so, Mr Smith who is English and lives eleven months a year in Australia (so is not a UK resident hence cannot have his yacht on the SSRegister) and 4 weeks on his yacht moored in Great Yarmouth cannot sail to France while in Europe for his holidays? I guess he can sail to Limboland...
    Nothing in the mail from our Lord Sarkosy's Customs Services stating the need for SSR, sory... and my french is pretty good. Please take your phone and talk to any custom officer from anywhere and hear for yourself.
    Ask the italian owners of under ten metres to explain why they cannot show a register paper when sailing french waters....
    Just not a good example - even if you could find somebody in that situation.

    You can dream up all kinds of circumstances to try to find exceptions, but that is irrelevant for the vast majority of people who go from UK to France with their boats. They have been doing it for years, occasionally stopped by customs, never a moment's problem for most - why? because they follow the advice and have the correct documents.

    Arguing about whether the Douanes have the right to fine is pointless on here because nobody has the knowledge or authority to give a definitive answer without referring to the official French sources as Sybarite has done. You can question the legality as Toad and Tim have done, but it makes absolutely no difference. If they are really serious about wanting a clearer statement then the only place to get a fuller explanation is the Douanes, but they seem reluctant to do this so it just goes on and on with Toad's gramophone needle stuck in the same track. It may well, of course, be that the Douanes are unable to give a good explanation, as Tim believes, then the alternative is to challenge them in the courts. For that you need a victim who has not followed the advice, and experience suggests they are few and far between. So the question is likely to remain unanswered.

    At the end of the day, there is no great principle of freedom or justice at stake here, just a nagging little side issue that has been blown out of all proportion by some who only see conspiracy, corruption or incompetence. As it has no negative impact, or rather any negative impact can easily be avoided, why worry about it?

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sybarite View Post
    You need to re-read their letter and this time, try understanding it. You may be French but apparently you still have trouble.
    French litterrature is a passion of mine and I inherited from my father, (who would not even allow his children to speak French with the Provencal accent even though we were born and living in the South of France...) a strong incline for precise words. He used to tell us that French is the Official International Language for Diplomacy and every single word, punctuation, capital letter was important. He would not tolerate spelling mistakes or even abreviations... did not like suspension points either...
    (excuse my english mispellings by the way!) so I can tell you that there is no mention of SSR docs being compulsory in your lady contact at Customs HQ's email...
    Traditional Boatyards are not the only place you find thick planks...

  7. #427
    timbartlett Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamM376 View Post
    I don't think anyone disputes that proof of ownership must be provided when requested by customs or police. Looking at it from an official point of view, they want (rightly or wrongly) to see a recognisable document in the form of Part 1 or Part 3....
    An SSR is not proof of ownership.

    So using your argument, an SSR will NOT do!

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by timbartlett View Post
    An SSR is not proof of ownership.

    So using your argument, an SSR will NOT do!
    Will not do for what?

  9. #429
    timbartlett Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailfree View Post
    ... Tim B just likes to drill down to the foundation of any statement and both I believe have made their own investigive actions to try and provide an answer. Its a fact that both currently believe the RYA advice is unecessary/misplaced/wrong - the majority of us recommend sticking with this RYA advice...
    I think the fact that you seem unable to conduct this discussion without misrepresenting what is said by those you disagree with is an indication of the weakness of your argument.

    I have not said that the RYA advice is unecessary(sic) or misplaced or wrong.
    I have (repeatedly) written that carrying an SSR or Part 1 will help to avoid problems with foreign officials. So has the RYA.
    The RYA has (AFAIK) never said that and SSR is a legal requirement in France.
    Nor have I.
    Neither have I said that it is not.
    I have, however, pointed out that despite numerous long-running threads on this forum, those who insist that registration is a legal requirement for british boats visiting France have failed to produce any evidence that substantiates their argument, other than one email (purportedly from a senior french official) which refers to a number of irrelevant laws and misrepresents others.
    Last edited by timbartlett; 03-04-12 at 00:36.

  10. #430
    toad_oftoadhall's Avatar
    toad_oftoadhall is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranona View Post
    Just to clarify. Opinion is important because opinion and belief underpin decisions.
    Opinion is irrelevant to this dispute, it's a purely factual disagreement.

    If it's an offence to sail to France in a normal leisure boat with a photocopied SSR then you (et al) are right. If not you are wrong.

    A opinion poll won't sort that out. We simply need to read the legislation.
    Last edited by toad_oftoadhall; 03-04-12 at 07:02.

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