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  1. #641
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    toad_oftoadhall is offline Registered User
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    Just having a poke round and found this gem!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tranona View Post
    The UN convention requires that when ships/yachts are in foreign territorial waters they must indicate their country of registration by flying the correct ensign and having evidence of registration. If they do not do so, then the foreign country may not abide by the principle of "comity" and require the vessel to comply with the registration requirements of the country.
    snipola

    Quote Originally Posted by Tranona View Post
    the French in particular can and do apply sanctions and it will be against the skipper, not the owner.

  2. #642
    timbartlett Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by rotrax View Post
    Post 112 seems to cover it Tim.
    OMG. Not that again.
    None of the articles of the Code des Douane that are listed by number in that document are relevant.
    One of the two articles from the Montego Bay Convention (UNCLOS) that are mentioned is also irrelevant, and the other is grossly misrepresented.

    That fatuous letter is probably the biggest red-herring to have blighted these threads.

    To save you the trouble of looking up the legislation referred to, here it is, with a translation provided by someone else (sorry, I can't remember who) and my comments.There was an error in the numbering in an earlier version of this, but I believe I have now put it right:

    60 For the purposes of this Code and to the pursuit of fraud, customs officers may enter and inspect cargo and conveyances and the people. Where does this refer to documents or to proof of nationality? How does a registration document fit into any of the three categories of thing that this article entiltes customs officers to inspect?

    62 Customs officers can enter any vessel within the maritime zone and customs in the area defined in Article 44a as provided in this section. Where does this refer to documents or to proof of nationality?

    63 Customs officers may go on board all vessels, including warships, which are located in ports or harbors or getting on or off the rivers and canals. They can remain there until their discharge or release. Masters and commanders must receive customs officers to accompany them and, if requested, to open the hatches, cabinets and rooms of their building and the parcel designated for the visit. etc.etc. Where does this refer to documents or to proof of nationality?

    44 In a contiguous zone of between twelve and twenty-four nautical miles measured from the baselines of the territorial sea and subject to boundary agreements with neighboring states, the customs may exercise the necessary controls to:
    a) prevent infringement of the laws and regulations that the Customs Administration is responsible for enforcing the customs territory;
    b) pursue violations of these laws and regulations committed within the customs territory. Where does this refer to documents or to proof of nationality? This is the most open one -- maybe "exercise the necessary controls" could be interpreted as meaning "entitled to demand sight of a registration document". But only if they are doing so in order to "prevent infringement" or to "pursue violation" of the laws and regulations. So what law would be being infringed or violated if I allowed them to board my vessel but couldn't find my SSR? I haven't infringed a law, because I have alllowed them to exercise their control... so that means they aren't entitled to demand my SSR because I haven't broken the law. Unless, of course, there is some other law... the search goes on!
    410 Is liable to a fine of 300 euros to 3000 euros any infringement of the laws and regulations that the Customs Administration is responsible for enforcing when the defect is not more severely punished by this code. THis suggests that if I had broken the law, customs would, indeed be entitled to collect a fine. But I see nothing that entitles them to collect a fine if I have NOT broken the law!

    UNCLOS 91.2 Every State shall issue to ships to which it has granted the right to fly its flag documents to that effect.
    Who is required to take a particular action as a result of this Article?
    Does this article say anything about anyone being required to carry documents?
    Do you consider ""Moreover, taking into consideration maritime international law, any ship which takes the sea must hold, on-board, an act of nationality delivered by the competent authorities of its country" to be an accurate paraphrase of it?


    UNCLOS 92.2 A ship which sails under the flags of two or more States, using them according to convenience, may not claim any of the nationalities in question with respect to any other State, and may be assimilated to a ship without nationality. Does this article refer to vessels that are sailing under the flag of one state(and only one) state?
    Do you consider ""Consequently, a ship which would not be registered with a particular State or several States with which it would be eligible, is legally described as a ship without nationality" to be an accurate paraphrase of it?
    Last edited by timbartlett; 18-04-12 at 18:04.

  3. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by toad_oftoadhall View Post
    TC once wrote an excellent column about a ghost on a Pilot Cutter he'd sailed on. Was he lying about that? Or does a bit of apocryphal spice make for a good column? I hear TC tells a good few stories about scrapes with the law which are gripping, but certainly apocryphal. Is an apocryphal story in a column a lie?

    Anyway let's assume the story isn't apocryphal. We know hasn't helped you identify TOCWUTPAORDIF because you admit you haven't read it. So what possible relvance is it to the quest for TOCWUTPAORDIF?
    You once again miss the whole point. Are you accusing him of lying? How would I know? If you want to know, ask him.

    I am not interested in your acronym, this is merely to illustrate that other people (icluding Tim in a recent post #626) recount stories of having difficulties with foreign officials because of incorrect documentation or lack of documentation for the boat.

    According to you there is no need for any documentation and officials in other countries have no right to ask for it. And yet your fellow traveller is constantly recommending that anybody going abroad register their boat, presumably based on his own experiences as recounted above. Hardly a ringing endorsement for his espoused position here.
    Last edited by Tranona; 18-04-12 at 18:15.

  4. #644
    rotrax is offline Registered User
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    Like I said earlier, my rudimentary French is enough for me to understand what the reply from the Douanes said, and its good enough for me. The fact that it has no relevance to your view is a matter of indiference as I will not be in a position to be sanctioned by the Douanes for not being registered. Legal or not, its not worth the candle to risk it. I do not consider it an onerous requirement and am happy to comply. Ah-I forgot-according to you its not a requirement.......

  5. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelchapman View Post
    In France french law applies - even if it goes contrary to any agreement they signed.
    All the more reason to find out what French Law requires.

    Incidently, have you convinced any forumites of this yet:

    http://www.ybw.com/forums/showpost.p...8&postcount=16


  6. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotrax View Post
    Post 112 seems to cover it Tim.
    Great, which one of the many rules stated are you saying is TOCWUTPAORDIF?

  7. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by timbartlett View Post
    OMG. Not that again.
    None of the articles of the Code des Douane that are listed by number in that document are relevant.
    One of the two articles from the Montego Bay Convention (UNCLOS) that are mentioned is also irrelevant, and the other is grossly misrepresented.

    That fatuous letter is probably the biggest red-herring to have blighted these threads.

    To save you the trouble of looking up the legislation referred to, here it is, with a translation provided by someone else (sorry, I can't remember who) and my comments.There was an error in the numbering in an earlier version of this, but I believe I have now put it right:

    60 For the purposes of this Code and to the pursuit of fraud, customs officers may enter and inspect cargo and conveyances and the people. Where does this refer to documents or to proof of nationality? How does a registration document fit into any of the three categories of thing that this article entiltes customs officers to inspect?

    62 Customs officers can enter any vessel within the maritime zone and customs in the area defined in Article 44a as provided in this section. Where does this refer to documents or to proof of nationality?

    63 Customs officers may go on board all vessels, including warships, which are located in ports or harbors or getting on or off the rivers and canals. They can remain there until their discharge or release. Masters and commanders must receive customs officers to accompany them and, if requested, to open the hatches, cabinets and rooms of their building and the parcel designated for the visit. etc.etc. Where does this refer to documents or to proof of nationality?

    44 In a contiguous zone of between twelve and twenty-four nautical miles measured from the baselines of the territorial sea and subject to boundary agreements with neighboring states, the customs may exercise the necessary controls to:
    a) prevent infringement of the laws and regulations that the Customs Administration is responsible for enforcing the customs territory;
    b) pursue violations of these laws and regulations committed within the customs territory. Where does this refer to documents or to proof of nationality? This is the most open one -- maybe "exercise the necessary controls" could be interpreted as meaning "entitled to demand sight of a registration document". But only if they are doing so in order to "prevent infringement" or to "pursue violation" of the laws and regulations. So what law would be being infringed or violated if I allowed them to board my vessel but couldn't find my SSR? I haven't infringed a law, because I have alllowed them to exercise their control... so that means they aren't entitled to demand my SSR because I haven't broken the law. Unless, of course, there is some other law... the search goes on!
    410 Is liable to a fine of 300 euros to 3000 euros any infringement of the laws and regulations that the Customs Administration is responsible for enforcing when the defect is not more severely punished by this code. THis suggests that if I had broken the law, customs would, indeed be entitled to collect a fine. But I see nothing that entitles them to collect a fine if I have NOT broken the law!

    UNCLOS 91.2 Every State shall issue to ships to which it has granted the right to fly its flag documents to that effect.
    Who is required to take a particular action as a result of this Article?
    Does this article say anything about anyone being required to carry documents?
    Do you consider ""Moreover, taking into consideration maritime international law, any ship which takes the sea must hold, on-board, an act of nationality delivered by the competent authorities of its country" to be an accurate paraphrase of it?


    UNCLOS 92.2 A ship which sails under the flags of two or more States, using them according to convenience, may not claim any of the nationalities in question with respect to any other State, and may be assimilated to a ship without nationality. Does this article refer to vessels that are sailing under the flag of one state(and only one) state?
    Do you consider ""Consequently, a ship which would not be registered with a particular State or several States with which it would be eligible, is legally described as a ship without nationality" to be an accurate paraphrase of it?
    I responded to these points : post #549. Again you conveniently chose to ignore it. As you did the various other times I have replied to it.

    You will simply not accept what constitutes French law.

    Let me ask you a question. What is the point of issuing a registration document and to what use may it be put?
    Last edited by Sybarite; 18-04-12 at 18:31.

  8. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by timbartlett View Post
    44 In a contiguous zone of between twelve and twenty-four nautical miles measured from the baselines of the territorial sea and subject to boundary agreements with neighboring states, the customs may exercise the necessary controls to:
    a) prevent infringement of the laws and regulations that the Customs Administration is responsible for enforcing the customs territory;
    b) pursue violations of these laws and regulations committed within the customs territory. Where does this refer to documents or to proof of nationality? This is the most open one -- maybe "exercise the necessary controls" could be interpreted as meaning "entitled to demand sight of a registration document". But only if they are doing so in order to "prevent infringement" or to "pursue violation" of the laws and regulations. So what law would be being infringed or violated if I allowed them to board my vessel but couldn't find my SSR? I haven't infringed a law, because I have alllowed them to exercise their control... so that means they aren't entitled to demand my SSR because I haven't broken the law. Unless, of course, there is some other law... the search goes on!
    At least you acknowledge it is "open". Try this on for size, Tim. I don't know if this is their argument, but it certainly can't be discounted.

    The Douaniers are charged with enforcing the code - preventing enfringement of violations. One of the things the code does is regulate the registration and safety of French vessels. So they are entitled to make sure your vessel complies.

    "But wait," you say. "My vessel is British, not French! I don't need to comply with French registration or safety requirements."

    "Very well, monsieur," they say. "You are correct - if your vessel is British it does not need to comply with French requirements. Please prove to us your vessel is British by producing your registration documents. We are entitled to exercise the necessary controls to ensure compliance with the code, and this is what we consider necessary in order for you to prove your vessel is not French and thus exempt from our requirements."

    Now, you could do the right thing and say, "I can see that possibility." Or you could do the expected thing and ARGUE against this. But if you do so, you will be making a legal argument regarding the interpretation of French law, and that is really something only a French court can rule on. Not you. Not toad.
    Last edited by bbg; 18-04-12 at 18:38.
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  9. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas123 View Post
    I will make sure that it is deregistered that goes without saying.......I suppose then that if I don't re register it as something it will be like a sea gull or whale.Stateless.
    Somebody needs to do something about all those naughty critters
    No, it won't be stateless, it's nationality once deregistered will be the same as the yours as the owner.

    Only problem then is that if you don't register it in the UK, you will have problems convincing foreign officials that it's British as the sale receipt and ownership transfer document will name a "foreign" vessel sold to you.

  10. #650
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    Here are some posts from October 2010 :

    TIM BARTLETT Oct 2010
    Al Carpenter found the source, contacted them, and told us all what they said. I have no problem with that. I see no need to phone and get the bloke to repeat it all to me.
    It's not that I "failed" to follow it up, it's that I saw (and still see) no need to.



    Journalistic objectivity I see....!

    TOAD Oct 2010
    Originally Posted by al.carpenter
    What I do not understand is why the agressivity and bitterness towards somebody who is only trying to help

    I don't understand the agression and bitterness either. You've provided a verifiable fact. You've been totally open about your source. Everything you've done in this seems to have been aimed at providing information and allowing others to check up on what you've found.

    B. hypocrites both !




    AL : Oct 2010
    fyg, I have emailed DOUANES FRANCAISES and expecting a written answer anytime soon, which I will post on this forum,

    So Al, where is their written response?

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