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  1. #141
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    Ari and jonic, I'll try to expand

    A nearly new boat gets osmosis and a boat centre take it in part exchange against a new replacement boat. Manufacturers choose not to repair the 2 year old boat and a yacht broker sells it to mr w upnorth, they tell mr w there is no need to survey it as it is under warranty. Mr w then try's to sell it with e yacht brokers in cobbs quay , who get in touch with another yacht broker in the midlands who turn up to buy it from mr w, e yacht brokers acting for mr w advise him to take the offer for the boat has it has osmosis, e yacht brokers chosen clients to buy the boat are actually pretending to be a private buyer and a surveyor, they are known by e yacht brokers as yacht brokers but mr w is not told this. The deal is done and then the third yacht brokers d h any marine brokers own the boat and sell it on to mr p, through s yacht brokers,the second mark via a midlands yacht broker s yacht brokers. That's several yacht brokers taking a cut, one boat, two marks, one mark hit twice and not an honest word from any yacht broker or dealer involved.
    Last edited by DAKA; 24-04-12 at 20:32.
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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfm View Post
    Are you serious? What's wrong with loosing things? They're only *things* ffs. You can go out and get some more. Trusting, and taking a bit of risk where there's a reward to be had, adds a nice little bit of frisson to the proceedings of life :-)
    Apologies I had a bad day...!

    I am about to risk something thats been in the fridge all weekend...

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfm View Post
    Are you serious? What's wrong with loosing things? They're only *things* ffs. You can go out and get some more. Trusting, and taking a bit of risk where there's a reward to be had, adds a nice little bit of frisson to the proceedings of life :-)
    so says the chap with the biggest toy...

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAKA View Post
    Ari and jonic, I'll try to expand

    A nearly new boat gets osmosis and a boat centre take it in part exchange against a new replacement boat. Manufacturers choose not to repair the 2 year old boat and a yacht broker sells it to mr w upnorth, they tell mr w there is no need to survey it as it is under warranty. Mr w then try's to sell it with e yacht brokers in cobbs quay , who get in touch with another yacht broker in the midlands who turn up to buy it from mr w, e yacht brokers acting for mr w advise him to take the offer for the boat has it has osmosis, e yacht brokers chosen clients to buy the boat are actually pretending to be a private buyer and a surveyor, they are known by e yacht brokers as yacht brokers but mr w is not told this. The deal is done and then the third yacht brokers d h any marine brokers own the boat and sell it on to mr p, through s yacht brokers,the second mark via a midlands yacht broker s yacht brokers. That's several yacht brokers taking a cut, one boat, two marks, one mark hit twice and not an honest word from any yacht broker or dealer involved.
    My head is spinning a bit with all of that!

    So Mr W put the boat for sale with E brokers, they sold it, and somehow the money he got became worth less because it transpired that they were a broker?

    And then that second yacht broker sells it again through a third broker? Apart from the fact that it's a bit odd that they don't sell it themselves, what with them apparently being brokers, if they did involve another broker (maybe he had a client for it), so what? It's the broker that owns it that's having to (presumably) take less for it.

    So anyway, the boat is now sold to a bloke who was presumably happy with what he paid, or he wouldn't have paid it, or is the boat now suddenly worth less as he bought it from a broker just like the initial bloke who sold it and accepted an offer finds his money is worth less cos it came fromn a broker?

    That's the bit you are going to have to explain, cos I can't see how these people were conned!

    As far as I can see, Mr W was made an offer, he accepted, boat is sold, he gets his money. So he's ok.

    And the end buyer buys a boat for an amount he offered, so he's ok.

    There's this slightly weird bit in the middle where the buyer from Mr. W was a broker, and then he sold the boat via another broker (don't brokers often work together when one has a boat and another a customer? Seems pretty sensible arrangement to me).

    So who are these mysterious "marks", and how did they get ripped off again?
    Ari

    ---------------------------------

    If a man speaks in a forest, and there is no woman to hear him, is he still wrong..?

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by ari View Post
    So who are these mysterious "marks", and how did they get ripped off again?
    This is the third or fourth time Pete has tried to explain this deal (or deals) and I still don't understand who got ripped off. It is never clear who actually owned the boat at any given time and in what capacity the various characters were acting in each of the transactions.

    The term "X sold" is used indiscriminately as you don't know if X was the beneficial owner or the agent for the owner and so on. So it is difficult to see what "malpractice" never mind offence has actually occurred and who is responsible for it.

    Anyway, like trying to use a VAT fraud case as an example of bad broker behaviour it has nothing to do with a compensation scheme to protect clients from the broker raiding the client account!

  6. #146
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    I have to admit I can't follow Daka's story either. I read/write long legal docs most days of the week but that long para has my head spinning too. It is not clear as to what actually happened either; as you read it lots of questions and imprecision become apparent. I suspect the underlying story might be interesting

  7. #147
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    I'm glad its not just me. I thought I was being a bit stupid.
    Ari

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    If a man speaks in a forest, and there is no woman to hear him, is he still wrong..?

  8. #148
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    Its simple really , honest .

    A boat with osmosis is sold as a perfect condition boat still under warranty and the marks are told no survey is required.

    scam a)

    Mark 1 buys the boat paying full price after being told the boat is in perfect condition and under warranty so a survey isnt needed.

    scam b )

    When Mark 1 sells the boat he chooses a Yacht Broker(e) who tells him the boat has osmosis and the broker has found a buyer.

    The buyer is a mate of the yacht Broker , the buyer is a dealer (DH) , neither the buying dealer nor the Yacht Broker (e) who is supposed to be acting for the mark tells mr w (the mark for a second time) that the buyer is a dealer.
    In fact the buyers partner is also at the hustle pretending to be a surveyor .
    yacht broker(e) acting for mr w , knows that the buyer is a dealer and also that the surveyor isnt a surveyor and in fact is the dealers partner.
    All at the hustle in poole the Yacht broker (e) advises his mark to accept the deal his mate has offered him as the surveyor has valued the osmosis boat and set a repair cost and arguably over valued a boat offered in part exchange.

    The boat is then moved back up the country so another broker (s) can sell it as a perfect boat still under warranty so no survey is required, no repairs were carried out.

    I expect the idea of using s yacht brokers was to introduce a safety barrier between the dealer selling and the second mark, the Yacht Broker is free to lie to the buyer .

    If anyone still doesnt understand it I am happy for jfm to phone me and ask as many questions as he likes , so he can expand , as long as he agrees client confidentiality and doesnt use real names.

    pm of tel. no sent.
    .

  9. #149
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    So why did Mark 1 not get a survey regardless?

    So why didn't Mark 1 claim under the boats warranty?

    So why did Mark 1 accept an offer that was under value? Or was it simply a trade offer in which case of course it is low?

    So what has Mark 1's buyer's surveyor got to do with Mark 1? Whether he has the boat inspected by a qualified surveyor or his mate or the bloke down the yacht club who claims to know about these things, is all irrelevant to Mark 1 surely? It's the buyer that's taking the risk of not having the boat surveyed properly.

    So how is Mark 2 a mark? He saw a boat for sale and he bought it at a price he was (presumably) happy with.

    And if it was a con, what successful legal action was taken?

    It sounds to me like you've been watching a bit too much Hustle. Were they all wearing sharp suits and had a glamorous woman involved in there somewhere before retiring to a flash pub?
    Ari

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    If a man speaks in a forest, and there is no woman to hear him, is he still wrong..?

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by ari View Post
    So why did Mark 1 not get a survey regardless?
    he went on the advice of a boat centre and was told a survey wasnt required as the boat was under warranty
    So why didn't Mark 1 claim under the boats warranty?
    the warranty didnt cover the osmosis
    So why did Mark 1 accept an offer that was under value? Or was it simply a trade offer in which case of course it is low?
    took the advice of the e yacht brokers , they were paid by the mark to act in his interests
    So what has Mark 1's buyer's surveyor got to do with Mark 1? Whether he has the boat inspected by a qualified surveyor or his mate or the bloke down the yacht club who claims to know about these things, is all irrelevant to Mark 1 surely? It's the buyer that's taking the risk of not having the boat surveyed properly.
    e yacht brokers who were supposed to be acting for mark 1 knew it was two dealers buying the boat and not a private individual and a surveyor, he told the mark they were
    So how is Mark 2 a mark? He saw a boat for sale and he bought it at a price he was (presumably) happy with.
    he bought a boat in as new condition for full price but it had osmosis which meant the boat was worth considerably less
    And if it was a con, what successful legal action was taken?
    Effectively a large chunk of the sale price was refunded

    It sounds to me like you've been watching a bit too much Hustle. Were they all wearing sharp suits and had a glamorous woman involved in there somewhere before retiring to a flash pub?
    after the event the legal action got a bit messy and one glamorous women divorced one of the yacht Brokers
    .

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