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  1. #61
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    PaulGooch is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovezoo View Post
    I live in Spain, so UK VAT increases on sausage rolls are of no concern to me.

    However this thread is about, shock horror, someone who didn't pay Customs and Excise what he owed them.

    I doubt if there are many business owners on this forum who haven't done the same, just on a smaller scale. Claiming the vat back on a laptop for the kids, doing a job for cash, holding back a payment to the VAT man as a customer is late in paying and so on. Some on here may even have a bank account and a brass plate in places like Monaco and Gibraltar...

    Its not even clear if any boat buyer lost out - it seems the worst that might have happened is if they didn't bother to make sure they got the right paperwork, they might not have a genuine vat invoice.

    Anyway, you lot can get on with giving JFJ a kicking for sticking up for his mate.
    What are you suggesting here, that putting the boat laptop through the books should lead to a 3 year prison term, or that it was OK to steal £210,000 of tax payers money because no boat owners lost out ?
    Jeanneau Merry Fisher 805 For Sale. www.gooch.co.uk

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranona View Post
    Pete

    You seem to be questioning the reliability of the court findings. HMRC does not go to court on a whim - they only go if they are pretty certain of their case or there is a legal principle that is being challenged (not unusual in complex law like VAT). They do not always win - for example recent case of Harry Redknap.

    So, in the absence of any new information not available to the court, or an error in the court process, his guilt is proven. As already said the poster has not provided any new facts, although even then they would not be much use to anybody here unless they know exactly what the court heard. If there is anything new it is possibly grounds for appeal.

    All we have so far from the poster is that the guilty party is a good bloke who has been stuffed by his accountants. Hardly the basis for forming any rational view that is different from the court's.
    Do you mean me ?
    pardon my surprise but I certainly did not intend to give that impression.

    I was disappointed in the treatment a newbie received on this forum that I feel part of, all I was attempting to do was make a newbie welcome and encourage further contributions , some may not agree with all he is saying but at first glance it appears they most likely know more than most about the reality even if the legal theory is hazy.
    Even if they dont know anything at all, they should still be made to feel welcome (in my honest opinion).

    My only other comment was one of surprise that the judge threw a harmless person into the clink when so many known dangerous thugs and pedofiles are free on the basis the prisons are full.

    I know which one I would like to see locked up and which one should have had his chattels auctioned off.

    £210 000 is only the VAT on one 40-50ft boat, there will be others reading this thread who have dodged that or a significant chunk of VAT by means of a charter dodge or boat purchase arranged offshore.
    I dont feel they are dangerous criminals needing locking away , educating on the illegality and loosing their boats perhaps !

    BTW

    If the judge was 100% accurate in his summing up then we need to be more concerned about the actions of Yacht Brokers, you got another snippet of proof regarding widespread dodgy dealings
    Last edited by DAKA; 19-04-12 at 13:04.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAKA View Post
    Do you mean me ?
    pardon my surprise but I certainly did not intend to give that impression.

    I was disappointed in the treatment a newbie received on this forum that I feel part of, all I was attempting to do was make a newbie welcome and encourage further contributions , some may not agree with all he is saying but at first glance it appears they most likely know more than most about the reality even if the legal theory is hazy.
    Even if they dont know anything at all, they should still be made to feel welcome (in my honest opinion).

    My only other comment was one of surprise that the judge threw a harmless person into the clink when so many known dangerous thugs and pedofiles are free on the basis the prisons are full.

    I know which one I would like to see locked up and which one should have had his chattels auctioned off.

    £210 000 is only the VAT on one 40-50ft boat, there will be others reading this thread who have dodged that or a significant chunk of VAT by means of a charter dodge or boat purchase arranged offshore.
    I dont feel they are dangerous criminals needing locking away , educating on the illegality and loosing their boats perhaps !

    BTW

    If the judge was 100% accurate in his summing up then we need to be more concerned about the actions of Yacht Brokers, you got another snippet of proof regarding widespread dodgy dealings
    Well, that is how it came across. but no matter. Getting off topic and having a go at the seeming inequities in our justice system does not do any good. I happen to agree that I would prefer not to be paying for his board and lodgings for 3 years (although will be less than half that if he behaves himself), and I would rather that money was spent (if it has to be spent) locking up other kinds of people.

    However, that is not for me to decide. Parliament sets the range of punishment and the courts use that range to match the punishment to the individual crime. Nothing new in that. Clearly Parliament chose to set heavy punishment as a deterent for this type of crime.

    As to the alternative of "education" of the illegality of his action. If a person in business dealing with large sums of money trading on his own account does not know what is legal and what is not in respect of VAT on simple transactions involving a boat he should not be in business. The afternoon spent in the local tax office (his would be in Bournemouth, very comfortable building and they give you tea) and you would know pretty much everything there is to know about how to keep yourself clear with your VAT accounts.

    Remember, he was not acting as a "broker" in this instance, but as a trader - as you say another example of dodgy dealings when individuals (or companies) are trading in boats. It is in situations like this when the person is not accountable direct to the client that the opportunity for "dodgy dealing" arises. From the little we have heard the buyers knew nothing about it.

  4. #64
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    PaulGooch is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAKA View Post
    <snip>

    I was disappointed in the treatment a newbie received on this forum that I feel part of, all I was attempting to do was make a newbie welcome and encourage further contributions<snip>
    Let's be clear here Pete, he isn't strictly speaking "a forum newbie".

    He's not a new boat owner just joined up and had a rough ride for asking a daft question, type of newbie.

    He's some bloke who's mate has been convicted of stealing £210,000 He's stumbled across this thread and decided to come here and flame anyone who made what he sees as disparaging comments about his mate. I don't see where, given his comments and attitude, he (or anyone else) could have expected a different response.

    Had he have joined up and posted a few facts, without the flaming, he would almost certainly have been greeted differently. He has yet to produce any evidence of his mates innocence or even told the forum if an appeal has been lodged.

    I stand by anything i have said.
    Jeanneau Merry Fisher 805 For Sale. www.gooch.co.uk

  5. #65
    ARA is offline Registered User
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    How's the knitting going PG? There seems to be a lot of reference to sheep from the upset ones

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAKA View Post
    I was disappointed in the treatment a newbie received on this forum that I feel part of, all I was attempting to do was make a newbie welcome and encourage further contributions , some may not agree with all he is saying but at first glance it appears they most likely know more than most about the reality even if the legal theory is hazy.
    Even if they dont know anything at all, they should still be made to feel welcome (in my honest opinion).
    +1

    It then turns into a lynch mob as a few of the more timid members start to feel brave enough to have a go, safe that they are in the big boys gang.

    I'm sure there will be a few chinese burns handed out by the thicky boys, not to mention dinner money nicked, before this is over.
    Today's Weather Forecast: Scorchio.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGooch View Post
    What are you suggesting here, that putting the boat laptop through the books should lead to a 3 year prison term, or that it was OK to steal £210,000 of tax payers money because no boat owners lost out ?
    I am not suggesting anything. If you can't understand what I have written I am not going to waste my time spelling it out to you.
    Today's Weather Forecast: Scorchio.

  8. #68

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    I agree 3 years seems quite a long sentence for a purely monetary crime of this nature, despite the relatively large amount involved. It suggests to me that the judge didn't consider the fraud was in any way accidental, and indeed the judge said on sentencing:

    “This was a deliberate and calculated attempt to deprive the Revenue.”

    Also JFJ didn't come on here and argue that the sentence was excessive, he may have had some (limited) sympathy if he had, he argued that his mate was innocent, but wasn't prepared to tell us why.

  9. #69
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    Default Summing up

    If the judge was 100% accurate in his summing up then we need to be more concerned about the actions of Yacht Brokers, you got another snippet of proof regarding widespread dodgy dealings [/QUOTE]

    Daka,

    Where did you fid reference to the summing up? I have not been able to find anything more concrete than the summary news stories. I would love to read more being connected and only knowing the facts as they pertain directly to me.

  10. #70
    PaulGooch's Avatar
    PaulGooch is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARA View Post
    How's the knitting going PG? There seems to be a lot of reference to sheep from the upset ones
    On my second cardigan already
    Jeanneau Merry Fisher 805 For Sale. www.gooch.co.uk

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