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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talulah View Post
    That would seem reasonable to me. If a car manufacturer had a problem with one model I wouldn't buy any of their range on the basis the risk element had dramatically increased.
    Components shared. Same design team. Same factory etc.
    Okay can you quote me one major car manufacturer that has not had a problem with a model they have produced.
    For my own part some very distinguished high end manufacturers have had problems with boats, for example Halberg Rassy. But I do believe that these things happen to the best, it just seems that when we get an isolated incident (which we still have no idea as to the cause) effecting a Bavaria it becomes an excuse to bash them.

  2. #112
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    Er, no not quite what I was suggesting. Of course that boat can be repaired in St Martin. There is enough experience of hurricane damage.

    I read the Ops post as that the insurers choose not to rebuild it-

    What you have bought you are clearly delighted with. Whether it would be an easy boat to repair you seem to suggest of course it is and I, IMO and my experience beg to differ.
    That is all!
    At the end of the year perhaps the market will decide on this particular model.
    What ever I write probably isn't helping, is it? But I stand by Caveat Emptor for anyone buying secondhand. Or buy new 'value for money' if nervous, just like modern motor vehicles, though we all expect to get a lot longer service life afloat
    There is always the 'thrash it' test-just get out there and dont reef and see what happens.Then have a good survey of all the bits one can get at... Not a bad way to test old boats, actually, including what I have tended to do.

  3. #113
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    toad_oftoadhall is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judders View Post
    No, but we stopped quoting for Bav's of less than two years old for charter cover because we kept getting a disproportionate amount of claims that arose out of silly things breaking because they hadnt been fitted properly.
    You've used it as an example so I think you should name the underwriter so we can all do our own research.

    Does charter yacht insurance really cover manufacturing problems? Seems unlikely to me but I could be wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Judders View Post
    There was also, of course, the issue with the keels which I am quite sure did not pass anyone by.
    As you will know, the Bavaria with the keel issue was the "Match" which has a totally different keel assembly (glued IIRC) to the less sporty classes. Also I don't think there was ever a clear view that the problem was with the design or construction itself (beyond the obvious engineering contradiction inherent in all deep thin keel designs!).

    To refuse insurance based on that individual boat's 'keel' problem your firm would need to have been naive to a degree that doesn't seem credible to me. Since everyone's using car analogies, it would be like refusing insurance on a hard top because the soft top equivalent had a problem with the soft top fabric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judders View Post
    The other builder had huge problems with the first 16 or so boats of what turned out to be a very successful and award winning line.
    A sample of a mere 16 boats produced enough damage and injuries that an underwriter refused to insure that class and you don't think it's a good idea to tell us which manufacturer? Are you crazy? Even 2 out of 16 would be a massive percentage that ought to be big news. In percentage terms way out of proportion to claims likely from the 1000's of Bavarias in the Charter Market.

    You've used it as an example, I think you should name the "other" manufacturer so we can all do our own research.


    We need further facts to make a judgement. I don't think that's an unreasonable request since you've offered this as evidence. It would beg some questions if, having raised this, you we unwilling to do so.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueboatman View Post
    Er, no not quite what I was suggesting. Of course that boat can be repaired in St Martin. There is enough experience of hurricane damage.

    I read the Ops post as that the insurers choose not to rebuild it-

    What you have bought you are clearly delighted with. Whether it would be an easy boat to repair you seem to suggest of course it is and I, IMO and my experience beg to differ.
    That is all!
    At the end of the year perhaps the market will decide on this particular model.
    What ever I write probably isn't helping, is it? But I stand by Caveat Emptor for anyone buying secondhand. Or buy new 'value for money' if nervous, just like modern motor vehicles, though we all expect to get a lot longer service life afloat
    There is always the 'thrash it' test-just get out there and dont reef and see what happens.Then have a good survey of all the bits one can get at... Not a bad way to test old boats, actually, including what I have tended to do.
    Still not sure what you are trying to say. Are you suggesting that secondhand boats are not good buys? or that certain boats don't stand up to hard use? Then you should get out more. There are regular articles in the press on "older" AWBs - indeed just rereading an article in Sailing Today on a Bavaria 44 that has been on charter for 6 years. Could find little wrong with it. This is a regular feature of such "tests" and nothing to suggest that the boats are anything special. What kills boats of any type is lack of use and poor maintenance and boats of all types suffer.

  5. #115
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    That is the third time you have tried to put words into my posts whilst claiming not to be understanding what I am writing? Goodness. Review a Bavaria 44? Why? not 43 or 45? Or 43.2 mark33? They're all white, all all right or not all right, in popular media myth:which is probably your perception as well as mine as to how these things work.

    Perhaps you would like to write all posts for everyone lol? Works for spin docs and rhetoric merchants ( tongue in cheek, I do not write to be offensive, ever.)

    Saying that someone should get out more, well...regards. Classic post 100 thread stuff innit.

    At the end of the day your problem isn't mine. I hope more facts will appear to reassure owners of identical models to that of the OP.
    Last edited by Blueboatman; 10-04-12 at 19:08. Reason: Sp/ add

  6. #116
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    Blueboatman,

    Do we detect that you've found a religion of some sort??

    Poor soul!
    1997 Bavaria 46 Exclusive; keel still attached
    ROCNA anchor, shank not bent

  7. #117
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    Btw surely 'poor soul' would be an oxymoron in your context?

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by toad_oftoadhall View Post
    Does charter yacht insurance really cover manufacturing problems? Seems unlikely to me but I could be wrong.

    When things go wrong in charter boats there is always a problem deciding if is it wear & tear, a weakness or misuse. Neither the owner nor the charter company want to pay for the repair and they don't want to P off their customer so if they can get the manufacturer to pay so much the better.

    Volvo used to warantee their engines for 1yr for charter boats 3yr for private boats.


    QUOTE 2
    "A sample of a mere 16 boats produced enough damage and injuries that an underwriter refused to insure that class and you don't think it's a good idea to tell us which manufacturer? Are you crazy? Even 2 out of 16 would be a massive percentage that ought to be big news. In percentage terms way out of proportion to claims likely from the 1000's of Bavarias in the Charter Market."End QUOTE 2


    I am aware that the first few (not sure of exact number) Dufour 40s had hull problems - too thin a layup?? Not sure of the circumstances but I believe they were all repaired /replaced at Dufours cost and the boat is now a good selling excellent 40' fast cruiser. It is my understanding that all the early owners ended up satisfied by Dufour acting responsibly and hence little publicity. Info is not official but only what I picked up as I was seriously considering the 44 at that time. My final decision was based on being a Volvo engine as I had had nothing but trouble on two previous Dufours with at various times Propeller/Gearbox/Clutches/Engine Failures. Personally I like Dufours but last 8yrs charter market use of the Yanmar engine without any problems vindicates my choice.

    How do you do multiple quotes please??

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailfree View Post
    How do you do multiple quotes please??
    Press the button on all those posts you want to quote then on the final one press the button

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireball View Post
    Press the button on all those posts you want to quote then on the final one press the button
    That's the least contentious and most useful thing written in the last ten pages!

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