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  1. #101
    prv is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by parsifal View Post
    But seriously, this was no more than human error.
    Agree. Giving the man on the tower a Garmin would have helped, but so would all on board doing their jobs better with the kit they had. I'm not suggesting the submarine was inadequately equipped given the way they (are supposed to) operate.

    Pete

  2. #102
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    He should have had an iPad!

    Anyone would think we were living in the stone age.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
    You're asking for a Petty Officer to over ride a Lt Commander, it just doesn't happen and he isn't the OOW. Also the PO was down below, he couldn't see what other vessels were doing top side which the the OOW could, or should have been able to do. However, the PO should have switched the depth sounder on earlier.

    The river routine is interesting, going to river routine would have doubled the lookouts and staff available and ensured they were watching for shallow water.

    Finally this sub was under trials. Systems, both physical and operational hadn't been sorted out yet so they should have been expecting stuff to happen or not work.

    Pete
    Is the *******ing for over-riding a superior thus preventing a potentially serious accident bigger than the *******ing for the potentially serious accident occurring?

    As an engineer, I'm used to any member of a team being able to bin a test run at any time, no matter how junior.

  4. #104
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    In the derided merchant service, we call this sort of thing "Crew resource management".

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minn View Post
    In the derided merchant service, we call this sort of thing "Crew resource management".
    In the Merchant Service I was in it was called "Where the f---k are we?".
    'The lyf so short
    the arte so long to lerne.'

  6. #106
    john_morris_uk is offline Registered User
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by john_morris_uk
    It's interesting to hear of the manning levels in the merchant navy from other posters, but it's of little relevance. Merchant ships steam from port to port in reasonably straight lines. They don't constantly alter course to allow for helicopters to fly off them or to avoid simulated attacks from missiles or all the myriad of reasons why the steel grey box zig zags all over the place all the time.

    (coughs politely) You want helicopters, divers in sat, ROVs , live well fluids on deck, maneouvering all over the place very precisely, in close proximity to others, in all weathers? Try the offshore oil business.

    Exceptions don't prove the rule. I have the greatest of respect for those who work in the arduous and challenging conditions of the oil industry. However they are not typical and I was commenting on another posters comments on how over manned RN ships are in comparision to the average Merchant Ship. Its not a fair comparison for all the reasons I have given.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by john_morris_uk
    They also don't have to be manned up to allow for half the crew being killed or involved in firefighting and damage control while the rest of the crew fight the ship.

    This is a hardship? How? See the comment above - its no hardship but part of my response to the slightly ill informed criticism of the alleged 'over manning' of the RN
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by john_morris_uk
    The final and telling pat is that merchant ships crews are far more stable - they don't have the same tempo of throughput of young aspiring officers every few months or every couple of years as they learn their profession on the greasy poll to command. Its a young man and womans service - and experience is gained rapidly.

    With great respect, John, at this point you are out of your tiny, cotton picking, RN mind. Perhaps I over egged the point - but please don't be rude. The tempo or churn of job change in the RN is challenging for all involved. The usual rule is that about half the ships company changes every year. This means that the technical and skilled jobs are constantly having to be re-learned and the same mistakes are often made. I am sure that there are jobs in the oil industry where the challenges are equally hard, but that's not the general point I was making. Of course I may be wrong, and if I over egged the challenges that the RN faces with training people my apologies.
    [B][I]Wishing things away is not effective.[/I][/B]

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxi77 View Post
    There is no chart table on a submarine bridge, I used to navigate the boat all the way up the Clyde without a chart, and pass the first line ashore within 1 minute of published eta. All you need is a bit of planning a notebook and a compass.
    Aye, aim at the BFC through the Cumbrae/Bute gap and then follow the traffic lights - rocket science?

    Now it's follow the P boat, the rigid raiders, the Mod plod all the way home!

  8. #108
    john_morris_uk is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by awol View Post
    Aye, aim at the BFC through the Cumbrae/Bute gap and then follow the traffic lights - rocket science?
    Except that's not what they were doing.... they were coming inshore to conduct a boat transfer.
    [B][I]Wishing things away is not effective.[/I][/B]

  9. #109
    Minn's Avatar
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    Sorry, John, not setting out to be rude, but your remark about the stability of manning did surprise me. Consider the bridge team on a fairly typical deepsea merchant ship - Master and three watch keepers - the traditional division of responsibility being:

    Mate - Cargo matters

    2/O - Navigation

    3/O - Safety

    and perhaps a cadet.

    At the moment, there is a high probablility that the two junior officers are both in the early stages of their careers.

    The commonest tour of duty is six on three off, and people are unlikely to return to the same vessel.In other words, the whole ships company changes during a year. They may, or may not, be of the same nationality and they may, or may not, be employed by the same company, but it is to be hoped that they do at least communicate in a common language.

    This is not a recipe for a high level of "stability!" The Master has to form his own view of the competence of the watchkeepers that his employers have sent him, and act accordingly.
    Last edited by Minn; 25-04-12 at 12:11.

  10. #110
    prv is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    The tempo or churn of job change in the RN is challenging for all involved. The usual rule is that about half the ships company changes every year. This means that the technical and skilled jobs are constantly having to be re-learned and the same mistakes are often made.
    Without sticking my nose into the RN / MN argument, why is this? As I understand it, the Army's teeth arms (Infantry, armour) don't move people about between regiments; if you join the 2nd Royal Loamshires as a soldier you'll stay there for your whole career more or less, surrounded by the same people. I guess officers must get seconded out to other places sometimes, as you find Infantry majors doing things in headquarters etc, but they don't go and become company commanders in other Infantry battalions as far as I know.

    This close-knit "family" effect is supposed to contribute to their effectiveness in battle.

    I wonder why the Navy find it necessary to shift people around at such a rate?

    Pete

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