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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamM376 View Post
    It would be amusing to see you try to tell the policia maritima or the navy that. As Chinita posted, the best explanation of the situation is on his link above to Lagos Navigators. Equipment required is dictated by category of boat, not where it happens to be sailing at the time.
    Portaria nº 427/96 3º Sempre que as ER se encontrem a navegar em zonas mais restritas, os meios de salvação e de radiocomunicações exigidos serão OS PREVISTOS PARA AS RESPECTIVAS ZONAS.

    I have had this accepted by the policia maritima but I must admit that being a Portuguese national might have made it a bit easier.
    Dum spiro spero. Cras ingens iterabimus aequor.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 25931 View Post
    According to the law (as I posted above) if you are within 6 miles of the coast you don't need a liferaft.
    If that is the case, wonder why boats are being checked for life rafts in the River Guadiana?

    They are also checking for Portuguese Light dues. Wonder how this applies to Spanish flagged vessels who are based in Ayamonte (Spain) or further down the Andalusian coast & never enter Portuguese Water.

    All very confusing but best be polite & cooperative & all seems to remain painless.

    Suspect skippers who refused to cooperate or allow the authorities to board would find it go very painful very quickly.

    Having now left Lagos, we are curently in the Guadiana so will see what, if anything, developes. Nothing to date.
    🇵🇹Neither a Remainer or a Leaver be. Hoping for the best but planning for the worst✔️

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by nortada View Post
    If that is the case, wonder why boats are being checked for life rafts in the River Guadiana?

    They are also checking for Portuguese Light dues. Wonder how this applies to Spanish flagged vessels who are based in Ayamonte (Spain) or further down the Andalusian coast & never enter Portuguese Water.

    All very confusing but best be polite & cooperative & all seems to remain painless.

    Suspect skippers who refused to cooperate or allow the authorities to board would find it go very painful very quickly.

    Having now left Lagos, we are curently in the Guadiana so will see what, if anything, developes. Nothing to date.
    This is from the RYA site "Following communication with the RYA, however, the Director General has now recognised the difficulties this presented for non-Portuguese flagged boats. The matter has been discussed between the Maritime Authority (Captain of the Port and Maritime Police responsible for the law enforcement) and the Maritime Administration (DGRM, responsible for law making) and the result is a policy decision that for pleasure craft not engaged in any locally based commercial activity like boat rentals, cruises, fishing or diving (for which special rules and licensing apply), Portuguese rules should only apply to vessels that stay for longer than a total of 180 days in a 365 day period. "

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailaboutvic View Post
    This is from the RYA site "Following communication with the RYA, however, the Director General has now recognised the difficulties this presented for non-Portuguese flagged boats. The matter has been discussed between the Maritime Authority (Captain of the Port and Maritime Police responsible for the law enforcement) and the Maritime Administration (DGRM, responsible for law making) and the result is a policy decision that for pleasure craft not engaged in any locally based commercial activity like boat rentals, cruises, fishing or diving (for which special rules and licensing apply), Portuguese rules should only apply to vessels that stay for longer than a total of 180 days in a 365 day period. "
    That's from Lisbon but no guarantee it's got down to local level yet or, if they will take any notice. Many of us have been here for several years and they know it so, I'm not expecting any leeway if pulled.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamM376 View Post
    That's from Lisbon but no guarantee it's got down to local level yet or, if they will take any notice. Many of us have been here for several years and they know it so, I'm not expecting any leeway if pulled.
    Agree, doubt if anything will change in the immediate future like the next few years!

    Assume they are referring to safety equipment rather than circulation tax which is manage by a different authority?

    Light dues, yet another issue, so anticipate all vessels will require a current certificate?
    Last edited by nortada; 29-05-13 at 09:09. Reason: Additional comment
    🇵🇹Neither a Remainer or a Leaver be. Hoping for the best but planning for the worst✔️

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by nortada View Post
    Agree, doubt if anything will change in the immediate future like the next few years!

    Assume they are referring to safety equipment rather than circulation tax which is manage by a different authority?

    Light dues, yet another issue, so anticipate all vessels will require a current certificate?
    There are different issues here. The circulation tax is paid to the Finances (tax dept.) and, just like road tax on a car, the police aren't interested in it. I "think" the circulation tax is based on 180 days in any 360 day period, unlike light dues but, unless providing tax returns, it's unlikely the Finances will even know a boat is here.

    Most people pulled are asked if they've paid light dues and, for the sake of 2 euro every 6 months, it's not worth dodging.

    Whilst I agree that a tiny minority of those just visiting on their way through may have been treated unfairly in the past, those of us based here are, in most cases, breaking the rules. Luckily, the Portuguese don't (so far) insist on matriculating boats whose owners have exceeded their residence period, unlike Spain.

    Like many things, the problems have been blown out of proportion and those thinking of coming here shouldn't be put off. Lets face it, most of their required equipment is common sense for cruising boats anyway.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamM376 View Post
    There are different issues here. The circulation tax is paid to the Finances (tax dept.) and, just like road tax on a car, the police aren't interested in it. I "think" the circulation tax is based on 180 days in any 360 day period, unlike light dues but, unless providing tax returns, it's unlikely the Finances will even know a boat is here.

    Most people pulled are asked if they've paid light dues and, for the sake of 2 euro every 6 months, it's not worth dodging.

    Whilst I agree that a tiny minority of those just visiting on their way through may have been treated unfairly in the past, those of us based here are, in most cases, breaking the rules. Luckily, the Portuguese don't (so far) insist on matriculating boats whose owners have exceeded their residence period, unlike Spain.
    Nice summary!

    Just a small correction. The Spanish no longer insist on re-registering (matriculating) boats belonging to tax residents. They've brought their boat rules partly into line with the EU standard - but only for tax residents! So, boats must be "imported" (ie, officials notified) within 30 days if you're a tax resident. If not, a "pollution tax" is payable - it's the same charge, but a different name. And, oddly only applied to tax residents who don't tell them about their boats . . .

    The general EU rule for "means of transport" (MoT - cars, boats, planes, caravans) allows that any MoT spending more than 180 days in a country other than its country of registration must be "imported" so that the circulation taxes applying to local MoT can be levied. Import can be temporary (no re-registration required) or permanent (re-register).

    For EU boats, in most EU countries, there are no circulation fees (France and Portugal are exceptions), so few countries bother with boats over-staying. France is odd, in that it only imposes circulation fees on French registered boats - which is why lots of French like to register their boats in Belgium! And Italy taxes owners of Italian registered boats over a certain size, but that's not a circulation fee, so it doesn't apply to visitors keeping boats in Italy.

    Arguably, lighthouse fees are circulation fees, but as you point out, with so small a sum there's no point in arguing the case.

    What a mess, eh. Very slowly, individual countries are bringing themselves into line with the EU standards. But many individual ministries in the smaller countries aren't even aware of the EU guidelines, so they bring in temporary rules to raise money, then find they break the EU rules . . . so they have to create exceptions, which various local officials aren't aware of because their training systems/communications aren't so hot.

    I've tried to summarise all these concepts at http://jimbsail.info/going-foreign/time-abroad , but necessarily, when it's easier to undertand, things are left out. So individual country interpretations are listed separately. More feedback is welcome!
    Last edited by jimbaerselman; 30-05-13 at 06:38.
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    jimbsail.info helps Skippers plan Europe Cruises

  8. #58
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    Interesting debate, but, as always, the devil is in the detail.

    Glad we have seen the end of the 180 days? 6 months much more straight forward & doubt if it will come to counting days.

    Unfortunately not sure what this RYA/ Portuguese Government missive refers to?

    Safety checks, light dues, or circulation tax?

    Earlier posts on this thread explain that these elements are all all different & administered by different agencies in different ways at regional (Faro), not national (Lisbon) level & from previous experience there is scant love (or communication) between both agencies & levels.

    As 'the illegal boarding & harassing foreign flagged vessels' appeared to be the basis of the original complaint to the RYA, it could be reasonably assumed that this latest advice applies to that issue.

    Seems funny that foreign flagged vessels can ignore Portuguese safety policy for 6 months.

    Moreover, how will the Portuguese Boarding Party establish if their intended target has been in Portuguese Waters for 6 months in the current year? “Honest Gov, just inbound from Spain, Gib or The Canary’s”. Whatever, doubt if it will wash with your unanticipated visitor.

    Above all don't say Morocco or they will immediately become convinced you are running drugs!

    Logic could argue that if all foreign flagged vessels are exempt for the first 6 months of each year, boarding will only happen between July & December?

    Scripting this on a beautiful day at anchor in the Guadiana, flying a Spanish & Andalusian courtesy flags.

    A large Spanish patrol vessel (one with the big gun on the front out of Ayamonte Marina) has just bimbled past with a cheery wave & no sign of boarding party - second time today.

    Pity because, after all of the effort/expense to get legal, I would have liked to discuss policy & politics!

    At a more practical level, I suspect nothing will change.

    A thought, unlike the UK where rules are usually universally imposed with an element of equality, in Iberia, rules & their implementation can vary markedly from place to place & in the same place, from day to day. To put it another way in Iberia Rules & Reality are not the same thing - all very confusing for a simple Brit!

    Whatever, if you object to being boarded, it could immediately become a drugs bust & a very painful experience.

    Go with the flow & all will remain sweetness & light.

    The choice is yours.

    Finally, when starting this thread back along, I had thought of calling it 'The Truth About Boating In Iberia' but as the rules in Portugal & Spain are very different & differently imposed, to try to keep it relatively simple, I limited the title to The Algarve.

    In this area Fred Drift to Spain only serves to confuse so possibly another thread covering Andalusia would be a good idea?

    See the Guadiana already has an active thread!
    Last edited by nortada; 02-06-13 at 10:06. Reason: A Thought?
    🇵🇹Neither a Remainer or a Leaver be. Hoping for the best but planning for the worst✔️

  9. #59
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    Bit Of Reality.

    Following on my from last – now back in Lagos having sailed the length of The Algarve & back (well motored most of it – life's a bitch) & stuck our noses up the Guadiana.

    Reality: there is no guard ship outside Lagos 'boarding everyone' Rumour 1. We were not accosted passing Portiamo, harassed in Culatra or boarded in the Guadiana other rumours doing the rounds.

    We saw the normal amount of Navy/Police activity with the normal courtesy. The Spanish Navy loved it when we dipped the red duster as we left The Guadiana & returned the salute. Albeit a bit late – but would you get that in Portsmoth if you passed the RN's remaining frigate outbound?

    Possibly of more interest, the artificial wreck site of Alvor lies on a direct track inbound from Faro,
    in 20m+ probably not a problem & it was well marked with 4 yellow buoys. There was a dive boat in the middle of the site but having seen the shipping sunk, probably not a good place to anchor.

    There is a new yellow on the approaches to Culatra from the west & the shallows appear to have extended seaward. Additionally, there is a lot of activity about 1 mile off the entrance at Santa Maria – are they drilling for oil?

    Culatra was as always but the anchorage didn't appear very full – but that was May before the marina prices rocketed.

    The tuna nets at Taveria have been extended a few miles eastward & are protected by another southerly cardinal. With loads of dayglo red buoys easy to see in daytime but transiting westward from the Guadiana at night, if you miss the southerly you could end up in the nets – not nice!

    After my last – not really part of this thread Ayamonte Marina has significant silting so access could be limited to the top of the tide & there is now a green buoy at the entrance identifying good water. Marina was very empty but the staff were as friendly & helpful as always – wish they would get a fuel pontoon.

    Not boarded whilst at anchor in the Guadiana but spoke with friends who were. The boarding party were friendly, courteous. They were more interested in ID & passports rather than boat taxes & safety equipment.

    Must stress – one boats experience but others may be able to add more facts to balance the fiction.

    Finally, Chinita, SHMBO was not carried off by pirates so no more camels – see you soon in Blighty.
    Last edited by nortada; 02-06-13 at 10:54. Reason: More detail
    🇵🇹Neither a Remainer or a Leaver be. Hoping for the best but planning for the worst✔️

  10. #60
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    Quote by Tranona on a different thread - That only goes so far. The international "convention" only applies if you are on "innocent passage" - that is voyaging through the coastal waters or entering port on business. As soon as you start cruising in coastal state waters you can be required to meet local rules. However, under the principle of "comity" most states will accept flag state rules. They have no obligation to do so and many states enforce local rules on visitors, or foreign flagged boats based in their waters. For example safety equipment in Portugal, requirement for licence for power boats in France (and probably other countries), CEVNI as already mentioned and DEKPA in Greece.

    No doubt others can quote different examples.

    All been very quiet on the activities of the Portuguese Authorities on The Algarve so does it follow that they have not been 'targeting' foreign flagged vessels.

    From conversation it would appear that many folk are taking safety equipment more serious & that can't be a bad thing.

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