Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 24
  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Berks
    Posts
    2,577

    Default Re: Red Diesel - ALL to read please

    You could also argue that a lot of boat owners are border line UK users, by that I mean-
    French marinas costs are a lot cheaper than our south coast ones.
    French diesel typically 0.80 euro/ltr (cheaper than our DERV equivelant)
    Weather generally nicer in France / Med
    Easyjet flights are cheap.

    It wouldn't take much (ie fuel price hike) for these owners to move their boats overseas and take advantage of better weather / cheaper marinas / white diesel cheaper than ours.

    Think of all the waterside businesses that would loose out.

    An average family out for a weekend around the Solent will probably spend £150-£200 on short stay moorings, meals and drinks out.

    Oviously if the boat is based UK, then the chandlers / boatyards /marine service industries all benefit, I mean, you are harldly going to buy VHF / lifejackets /25ltrs engine oil and take it overseas on a plane are you- You will buy it all where the boat is kept.

    You may argue this is not cost effective for a smaller diesel boat, but then how much fuel will a small diesel use? Would it be worth loosing bigger boats (and their associated running costs) overseas, and gaining the small revenues to be had by your smaller (trailer) boater?
    This is in no way is a dig by the way, the maths are that the bigger the boat, the bigger the costs and a lot of these owners would consider moving their boats abroad.


    <hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/colspics> Cols Picture Album</A>


  2. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Stratford upon Avon & S.Devon
    Posts
    5,166

    Default Re: Red Diesel - ALL to read please

    First line of Para. 5 of your "letter" doesn't make sense.
    I'd also drop the "future scenario" if I was you.

    I understood that the main reason for the removal of the "concession" is the demand from the EU for us to harmonise our tax system. This is a real can of worms.

    <hr width=100% size=1>

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Medway
    Posts
    19,981

    Default Re: Sorry to mention this again and again and agai

    But many of them there spanish trawlers got those fishing quotas by buying them from YOUR UK fishermen,who were only to glad to take the money and run.
    Self same augument about out of towners pricing poor little locals out of the property market.Who sold the houses,why their very own uncles and mums and dads.
    Would love to run may own aircraft,but will not spend the money therefore it will not happen.My loss.

    <hr width=100% size=1>If it aint broke fix it till it is.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    South coast
    Posts
    3,326

    Default Re: Sorry to mention this again and again and agai

    I personally think you are on a sticky whicket trying to argue that stopping red diesel for pleasure boats will affect anything, lets face it, it won't. Every year the marina berths go up way more than inflation, everyone waves their arms about and says "right thats it, no more", and what happens, the marinas get fuller!

    If you argue that UK boating is balancing on a knife edge and a few quid more is going to tip the balance then a bit of research is going to blow your argument out of the water. Try and get a berth in the south-west, every marina is not only chock full, but with massive waiting lists, I presume the Solent is the same? And lets be honest, losing red diesel isn't going to stop anyone boating. Running an average 35ft cruiser you're looking at a capital expense of £100K+ even second-hand, and what, £10K a year? You can't tie up £100K+ on a toy plus something like £200 A WEEK every week of the year and then plead poverty, it won't work.

    Your only real hope is as has been mentioned to argue the case that it is not a consession, it is a fact that the tax reflects the "non road" nature of use.

    I honestly think any argument on financial hardship grounds is going to be blown clean out of the water...

    Ari.

    <hr width=100% size=1>
    Ari

    ---------------------------------

    If a man speaks in a forest, and there is no woman to hear him, is he still wrong..?

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    ked into poverty by children
    Posts
    8,517

    Default Re: Sorry to mention this again and again and agai

    &gt;&gt;&gt;Running an average 35ft cruiser you're looking at a capital expense of £100K+ even second-hand, and what, £10K a year? You can't tie up £100K+ on a toy plus something like £200 A WEEK every week of the year and then plead poverty, it won't work
    &gt;&gt;&gt;
    I think you have fallen into the trap that the greenies/socialists and similar types would love you to enter. Quoting a boat as costing the same as a house in many parts of the UK, with running costs larger than the annual mortgage on same shouts "rich person, can afford any tax rise". More so when you describe the boat as "average".

    Take the scneario of a hypothetical boater who will be far more adversely affected. Ageing but sound Princess 32 with 2 x MD32s or similar. Cost of the order of £25K and running costs average about £250 per month. Owner can afford three weeks aggregate per annum on the boat, plus a few weekends, but not having £100K capital plus £10K disposable running money, has to be careful with fuel, repairs etc. His 200 gallons or so of fuel each year will suddenly almost double his running costs, which he is unlikely to be able to afford. Sells boat and blames Government for his fate at becoming a landlubber. The boat sits on brokerage, and sits, and sits, amongst large numbers of similar servicable but older craft and the old saw that only the very rich can afford boats becomes true.

    Now it is "proved" that only the rich have boats, they can easily afford compulsory licence fees, light dues, navigation tax, tonnage tax and, not being seen as natural Labour voters, no-one in Government gives a toss.

    As with all such things, it will be those working on the margins of affordability who will be driven out of the system.

    <hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.
    Two beers please, my friend is paying.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Stratford upon Avon & S.Devon
    Posts
    5,166

    Default Re: Sorry to mention this again and again and agai

    Well said.
    We used our boat for 140 odd hours last season and if diesel goes up to the price levels of petrol then our fuel bills will become by far our largest running expense. It would almost certainly curtail my own solo trips.

    If the EU wants us to harmonise then taxes on petrol should come down and that on diesel should go up. At a guess this would mean that we would be paying around 60p per litre for both.

    I'd be quite happy for the VAT to go up to normal fuel rates as the present low rate is an anomally that can't be explained.





    <hr width=100% size=1>

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Bristol UK
    Posts
    1,079

    Default Draft 2.... Hope you all like this one a bit more

    Well thanks all for your input.

    Have now almost totally re-written the letter (see below) and I like it a lot more.

    Have looked on the RYA website, but sadly their argument seems to be totally based on "We don't want to pay and it's howwid that you're going to make us &lt;&lt;sulk sulk&gt;&gt;".... sadly this isn't gonna carry a lot of weight with MP's....

    As ever, comments please and I'll send it off in a few days.

    If anyone else likes it and wants to send it (or an ammended version) to their MP please feel free, I reliquish all copyright (and therefore liability!!!!!!) .

    Thank you.



    __________________________________________________ _________________

    Dear Steve,

    I would like to present the case for not increasing the Duty on Diesel fuel for recreational boat users in the UK. In the examples below, I have assumed that the rate might rise to the same as road diesel. As it is more expensive to get fuel to a Marina than it is to get it to a road garage, I will assume it were to rise to 3p above the current average Marina price for petrol (currently about £1 per litre).

    I would like to base this case on 6 main points.

    1. Current Legislation is actually correct:-
    Currently here in the UK we enjoy what is described as the “Concession” of being allowed to use Red Diesel in boats, both “commercial” and “Recreational”. However this talk of “ending the concession” is a bit odd to me, because I understood that whether red or white diesel was used for vehicles depended on whether it was being used as “road fuel” or not. Thus, Farmers, who put red diesel in their tractors, are entitled to do so because a tractor is not primarily a road vehicle. Likewise forklift trucks in yard premises where not taken on the road, and finally boats because they are clearly not using red diesel as road fuel.

    I remember this because there was an issue a few years ago where farmers were hauling sugar beet to the factory with the new generation of “fast” tractors (these tractors do 40mph) and Customs were questioning their right to use red diesel because the vehicles were primarily being used as road vehicles. The final argument came down (I think) to whether these tractors had standard field tyres or whether they had fitted “road tyres”.

    So, to remove the so called “concession for boats” as far as I can see the government have to change the law such that it is not determined by vehicle use but by some other method. If they don’t then surely farmers (and fork lift trucks and trawlers and council grass cutting machinery and lorries on container ports etc………………) will also all have to use white diesel instead of red.
    Clearly a boat is not a Road Vehicle and therefore Road Fuel Duty CANNOT be applied to it any more than it can to heating oil etc.

    2. Administration of the Tax:-
    If the government say all boats to use White Diesel it will kill our commercial fishing industry, ferry operators, small commercial boat operators etc. If they then decide only “leisure boats are to use white diesel” then I can see a ridiculous situation where people running boats will fit an Office Network on it pretty quickly with a special locker for the server and fax! “No Sir, not a leisure boat but a floating office”. Or perhaps everyone will carry a hamster – “No Sir not a leisure boat, but livestock shipment”, Perhaps a lump of coal “No sir – it’s a barge”, etc etc.

    Having both Red and White Diesel on Marinas simply wouldn’t be possible as most are limited for space, so most marinas would have to make a decision which to stock creating an impossible situation.

    This would then require marina operators to decide what vessels have a valid excuse for Commercial Diesel and which do not – almost impossible to apply.

    3. Manufacturing:-
    In the UK we have a small but healthy boatbuilding industry, one of the very few manufacturing industries we do have left. Large craft manufacturers such as Princess, Fairline, Sunseeker are all based in the UK, and export around 85% of their output – this contributes wonderfully to our balance of Trade, and indeed a massive contributor to local economies, bringing massive investment in plant, equipment etc not to mention jobs. These companies are usually based in coastal (and often otherwise deprived areas of the UK). It is fair to say that there would be a significant drop in the number of people buying a boat of this nature to use in this country should this happen. This loss of sales would result in a huge drop in the level of VAT collected on these sales, which (as I will explain in point 4) would more than outweigh the small increase to the treasury of a higher duty.

    4. Negative increase in total duty collected:-
    Put simply, increasing the Duty would actually REDUCE the amount of money collected by the Treasury. The super-rich already often boat outside of the UK due to better weather, cheaper berth prices etc. Those few super-rich who don’t keep their boats abroad would simply move them there as cheap flights become more and more readily available, thus spending less on fuel in the UK.

    One of the biggest impacts would come from the medium-well-off. These owners often run a boat a few years old, and enjoy their quite expensive hobby. They choose to boat in the UK because once the boat is purchased, it isn’t too frightening to run. These owners would simply not be able to afford to boat any more, OR they would move their boating abroad. Without doubt some would stay, but they would limit the amount of cruising they did in order to keep the cost down.

    The second major impact would be that of visiting boats. Currently, if your boat is based in Northern France etc, our diesel is cheaper than theirs. It is very common to see French, Jersey and Gurnsey based boats visiting our Marinas. These visitors spend money in our coastal resorts that often rely very heavily on the visiting boaters for much of their revenue during the season. Places from Dover to Plymouth are awash with visiting craft during the summer bringing much needed income to these areas. If Fuel costs trebled then these craft would only visit if their tanks were large enough to allow them to get to the UK and then home again without refuelling.

    There would also be a huge reduction in the VAT and Tax collected from the purchases these visitors make in local shops, restaurants, bars etc – money which will simply go elsewhere. This applies to both the UK based owner who moves his boat abroad and visitors. The average family of 4 will normally spend well over £200 on a weekend to their boat. This re-distributes that wealth from (often) very wealthy areas of the country to the coastal regions (often the poorest). It is my view that towns such as Poole, Plymouth, Weymouth etc would suffer enormously from any large drop in wealthy visitors

    My main point here is that unlike motorists, who being landlocked HAVE to buy their fuel here in the UK, Boaters have a choice – if the fuel is cheaper offshore then they will take their business there instead of here.

    5. Employment:-
    Thousands of jobs will be at risk if the Duty was increased. Not only some jobs in the Manufacture of boats, but also jobs at Marinas. Fewer boats in the UK means fewer staff are needed. Fewer staff at the myriad of industries around our coastline serving this massive industry, chandlers, engineers, repairers, etc. Jobs at coastal towns who thrive on the Marine users, restaurants, bars, clubs, etc.

    6. Safety:-
    There are a couple of safety issues here.

    a) In order to take advantage of the cheaper fuel abroad, people will run their boats lower on fuel rather than fill up here in the UK. Many could risk trying to return to a home port in France or Jersey rather than pay extortionate UK prices. This means that the number of rescues that the Coastguard will be required to carry out will rise dramatically.

    b) On small (under 35’) boats, the additional cost of diesel engines would no longer be worth it. This means that these boats would cease to be sold at all in the UK – or they would be sold with thirsty petrol engines, inherently more dangerous owing to the explosive nature of the fuel. The number of deaths and injuries from boat fires would increase sharply – witness the problem America has with boat fires.


    So, my message for Gordon Brown is:

    1. Leave red diesel law as it is (unless you are also taking on everybody else as well, don’t just stick the knife in to boaters).

    2. Put 17.5% VAT on boat diesel if you must, that makes things a bit simpler and the increase wouldn’t be enough to drive the boaters abroad.

    3. If you DO “harmonise” rates of duty here in the UK with Europe, don’t forget that if you raise the duty on Red Diesel, you will also have to lower the cost of Road fuel duty by around 80% - imagine the loss in revenue to the treasury.

    4. The RYA may well launch an application that applying Road Duty to marine fuels is actually illegal?

    5. Be prepared for the hidden cost. In certain parts of the country, the loss to tourism, manufacturing and the leisure industry will more than outweigh the revenue raised without taking into account the increased cost of redundancies. The Loss in VAT and corporation Tax on companies profits will certainly balance the increase in Duty raised.

    6. The Marine industry automatically transfers wealth from the richest parts of the country ( you need to be quite wealthy to own a boat), such as London, Bristol, Birmingham etc and moves it to the Coastal regions such as North Wales, Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Scotland. The boat owner will still spend this money – but they will spend it abroad.

    7. Why do we have to pay the totally ridiculous pump prices we do for petrol for boats? Petrol is subject to road fuel duty, yet the boat never uses the road, and if it does then it’s use is paid for with the duty on the fuel on the towing vehicle. Many boat owners won’t pay the high prices in marinas for petrol, and thus most marinas won’t bother selling it. This leads to serious danger for many petrol boat owners who are on long passages and run out of fuel. It also means that most owners tow their boats full of fuel rather than keep them empty till they reach the sea. Thus if a boat is in a road Traffic accident then there is 30 gallons (or often more) of petrol for the emergency services to deal with. The cost to the treasury of providing coastguard services to the people who run out must easily match the revenue raised from the petrol at marinas. Why not introduce Red Petrol at Marinas around the UK. This would encourage the huge numbers of petrol boat owners along the coast to travel further, and would draw people over from France, Jersey, Guernsey etc bringing much needed income to our Coastal towns.


    I hope this helps, but if you would like more information, please contact the Royal Yachting Association on




    <hr width=100% size=1>Why can't we work 2 days a week and boat the other 5????
    Why can't we work 2 days a week and boat the other 5????

  8. #18
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Jersey/Antibes
    Posts
    22,612

    Default Re: Draft 2.... Hope you all like this one a bit more

    A few quick comments (which I apologise read as negative, that's just how it is when commenting on someone's doc):

    Point 1 is a non point. The Road Fuel and Concession point is just semantics. The point is, till now it has been called a Road Fuel tax but it is not ]intrinsically so, which means they can change the law and make it a Sea Fuel tax. Just because the fuel is called Derv (as someone said before) does not mean by its very nature it should not be taxed when used in boats

    Point 2 The coal/office/hamster stuff is trivial and turns the reader off. Take it out.

    Point 3 Exports are 85% physically but not in balance of trade terms because a lot of exported boats are bought by Brits using Brit GDP. So the economic exports are really much less than 85%. Dunno the number but spect 50%. Furthermore your claim there will be loss of VAT on boat sales is contradictory - if 85% of boats are physically exported then VAT can be collected on 15% max of UK boat production, which aint much

    Point 4 - beware the logic. The uK based super rich by definition dont care if diesel is taxed or not, cos they're so rich. So they're not gonna behave the way you say. Likewise their behaviour is not affected by cheap flights as they prefer BA Club with a gold card and the exec lounge

    Point 6a - dont say "extortionate", it's inapprpriate

    Best of luck :-)

    <hr width=100% size=1>

  9. #19
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Broken Brexit Britain
    Posts
    55,218

    Default Devil\'s Advocate

    I really admire your efforts here but I just have to play devil's advocate with regard to your 6 points

    1. Nobody is going to dispute that boats are not road vehicles but it would only take a small change in legislation to change that. I dont think Gordon is going to quake in his boots about that

    2. If its going to be such a mess to adninister red/white diesel for commercial/non-commercial boating, how do they do it in the rest of Europe? Its only the UK and Belgium that allows red diesel for all boaters so how does France, Spain, Italy et al manage to administer it without problem?

    3. This is where the argument really trips up. If 85% of boats manufactured in the UK are exported that means only 15% are sold in the UK and (let's pluck a figure out of the air) if we say UK boat sales fall 20% thats only a 3% fall in total boat production - hardly industry wrecking?

    4. At present, I think there is a 8% duty on red diesel, say about 3p per litre of diesel. Road fuel has about 60p per litre of duty and VAT added to it. so, your argument that the net tax take would decrease does'nt stack up because there would have to be a massive reduction in fuel usage (like a 95% reduction) for the Treasury not to make money. As for French boats being put off coming to the UK, very few French boats come to the UK in my experience and most of those are yotties who, as we know, dont spend money anyway

    5. The redistribution argument is very Old Labour. However, I do agree with your tourism argument. The govt is indeed very keen to promote UK tourism and for us to spend our pounds in Poole rather than Palma so this is one to stress. But, as for jobs generally, I cant see that a hike in fuel prices is going to mean MDL marina staff out of work. There should be a little less pressure on berthing availability and maybe on swindlery prices but some might argue thats not a bad thing anyway. And I have to go back to Europe again. Does high fuel prices put people off boating in places like France and Spain? No, because virtually every marina is full

    6. I think the safety argument is stretching the point somewhat. Does the chancellor think that diesel cars are inherently safer than petrol cars? Sure, and he shows it by bunging an extra 3% tax on company diesel engined cars and ensuring that road diesel costs more than road petrol.

    I wish you the very best of luck with your letter and, purely from a selfish point of view, I very much hope you succeed





    <hr width=100% size=1>

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Medway
    Posts
    19,981

    Default Re Dear Gordon B.

    So spending our hard earned boating pound in and around Chichester marina will help persuade the man at No 11 will it.
    Last time was there it cost me 60.00 for a quick bite at that country hotel opposite the entrance.Keep a decent white actually and the dessert was .......oops.sorry I forgot we are all skint.It was only a short walk from the car park to the restuarant once a parking space was found among the Astons the Mercs and the seven series(God they are ugly)
    How about a food parcel or two to the deprived marina locations of Windsor and Henley.[img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]


    <hr width=100% size=1>If it aint broke fix it till it is.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Latest YBW News

Find Boats For Sale

to
to