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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    161

    Default Red Diesel should be taxed!

    I am a bit concerned that some of the arguments expoused for the retention of the tax status on red diesel could be self defeating - for example, the emphasis on 'leisure' boating is at the expense of 'leisure' driving or 'leisure' flying etc. To descriminate against one or more interest groups raises some interesting human rights issues that will ultimately dilute the force of one's argument. But what is a fair rate of tax? 25 years ago I was in the States during an oil crises, a proposal to increase the price of fuel by 4cents caused such widspread disgust and reaction the decision to increase the price was rescinded. BTW $1.74 per gal in USA

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    15,477

    Default Re: Red Diesel should be taxed!

    Hmm see you're in Ireland running an outboard.

    How's it going to affect you?

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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: Red Diesel should be taxed!

    Tut tut, can't get the ball so get the man? Anyway you can't be Pope - you have too many syllables in your name....

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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    South & West Wales, UK.
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Red Diesel should be taxed!

    There is no descrimination in the use of red diesel for leisure boating. It can be used for leisure driving (off-road) and leisure flying (off-road) just as it is used for leisure boating, which is also off-road. The issue is that 'red' diesel is 'excise reduced' fuel, which is to say that it does not carry the 'road tax' of white diesel, which is for vehicles used on public roads. EVERYBODY using diesel for a purpose other than driving a motor vehicle on a public road can use red diesel. So why hit the boaters and nobody else? Would the likely minimal loss of votes have anything to do with it? If it is in the interests of EU 'harmonisation', then why 'harmonise' just this when the P.M. has stated yet again the need for UK control of tax over the efforts of the EU to impose 'harmonisation' on us?

    <hr width=100% size=1>If compulsory training is such a good idea, why are there so many road accidents?
    If compulsory training is such a good idea, why are there so many road accidents?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: Red Diesel should be taxed!

    I agree that boaters are a 'soft target' due to the fact they represent a relatively small social group with limited political clout. I also agree that red diesel should not be taxed equivalent to white diesel and shall be writing to my MP to this effect. What I was trying to raise were the points there are pressure groups representing the environment, fuel poverty, health and education (and petrol users as inferred by Longjohnsilver!) etc. who have substantial political clout and would perceive tax benefits to any other grouping as an attack on their own position. I was also trying to flag up the point by citing the low cost of fuel (any fuel) in the USA that with taxation there must be accountability which seems to be absent in this country. The point still remains as to why red diesel users should have a tax advantage as to other fuel users e.g. if you could prove the petrol/gas you were using was leisure purposes only then why can these groups not benefit form an equivalent tax reduction? If the government are citing 'tax harmonisation' within the EEC as a reason for the proposed change then this can easily be proven as a fallacy and readily dismissed. What cannot be readily dismissed are legally binding targets for emissions and ensuing carbon taxes. Tax on red diesel is going to happen it is just a question of when. The question for us is how do we make government justify the levels of increase they seek to impose and why these taxes should be less for us than everybody else?

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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Stratford upon Avon & S.Devon
    Posts
    5,166

    Default Re: Red Diesel should be taxed!

    Very well put.

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  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    255

    Default Tax Yes - But Which Tax ?

    I understand that everything must be taxed.
    But why should we pay Road Tax on a vehicle which does not use the road ?

    Compare with a farm tractor.

    This oil we use is also used for lights and heating. Should an oil lamp pay road tax ? Should your central heating system pay road tax ?

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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: Tax Yes - But Which Tax ?

    This is exacly the potential danger I am speaking of - oficialdom will see only a potential for gaining taxes whereas those who are about to be taxed either have no voice or their response is so diluted by diverse and often spurious argument. If you use the car analogy, you are taxed when you buy a car, taxed when you use it (both through fuel and road tax), taxed when you need spare parts and, I have no doubt in the future, taxed when you come to insure it!. To mount a challenge to this proposed tax change those who are about to be affected should encourage support for those who are not. This can only be achieved through understanding and other people's needs. Some MPs are going to ask questions like "Why should I assist one group avoid a tax liability when there are X number of OAPs die in my constituency every year from hypothermia through not being able to afford heating?" Now, if you compare this to the perception of an individual using a Grand Banks 58 Eastbay FB (Motorboat and Yachting, March 204, p40) going for a jolly consuming fuel (which incidently is an non-renewable energy resource) at a rate of 114 gallons per hour, I know which way many MPs will jump. It just takes one OAP to ask the question in the right quarters "Why should this particular social grouping benefit from a tax break on fuel when my partner died last winter from hypothermia? Targeted tax - and tax reductions - for such diverse social groups should be the real issue..to avoid this pitfall network with other groups for mutual support therby increasing your own voice.

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  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Portsmouth
    Posts
    2,731

    Default Re: Tax Yes - But Which Tax ?

    The fundamental difference is that nobody (except the true masochist...) drives a tractor for fun.

    Almost all other uses for red diesel are commercial. The reason "Leisure" boaters are being "targeted" is that we are just about the only leisure users of red diesel.

    <hr width=100% size=1>"I am a bear of very little brain and long words bother me..."

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    London
    Posts
    707

    Default Re: Tax Yes - But Which Tax ?

    Being in Ireland you do not suffer Mr.Brown's taxes so to pick up just 1 point from your post. Tax on insurance is already here. I paid £27.36 on my car policy and £8.91 for my boat this year. We need all the help we can get.

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