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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Warwick. Boat in Swansea
    Posts
    1,362

    Default Mauling on Scuttlebut.

    Hi all,

    Ive just got back from scuttlebut where I have been following the red diesel thread on there for the past 24 hrs or so. I have RX'd quite a severe mauling from some quarters. Would you believe that there are sailors on there that actively want to start a campaign to promote the increase of RDD...
    I cant quite get my head around this mentality.
    I am shocked and appalled that mariners will stand by and gloat at fellow enthusiasts.

    It seems that it is MBM alone that is carrying the torch for the RD campaign.
    If we are to stand any chance of winning this, then surely the other mags in the group, PBO etc are going to have to carry campaigns as well.
    It seems that we have as much to do to win over our sailing colleagues as we do the government.

    So Kim, Hugo, and other chief hacks in the group please take note and mount a campaign across all titles and lets try and educate the sailors to what life may be like after a RDD hike, for them as well.


    Steve.





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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    1,738

    Default Re: Mauling on Scuttlebut.

    During all their waffling, 1 good point was raised.

    Has anyone actualy spoken to the large boat builders about the campaign?

    What do you think Hugo - worth MBM doing and publishing the results?

    <hr width=100% size=1>Thanks

    Leyton
    (EXTAR Solutions - Software that works for you)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    9,008

    Default Re: Mauling on Scuttlebut.

    Agree with you Steve.
    Al


    <hr width=100% size=1>No dear,the water goes in the other one.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    9,008

    Default Re: Mauling on Scuttlebut.

    Good idea Leyton but it probably would'nt affect them as I would guess most of their stuff goes either abroad or to people who won't notice the difference.There must be some way of running a proper study into this. Has there ever been an industry that has had to suffer a three fold fuel price increase?If so what were the results?Or will we all be looking at faded copies of MBM in a few years thinking"that used to be fun".
    Al

    <hr width=100% size=1>No dear,the water goes in the other one.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    1,738

    Default Re: Mauling on Scuttlebut.

    I agree, the last thing we want is to have to give up our boats!!

    I think Hugo & the MBM team would be the best people to at least approach them.
    I think they would be positive because they would not want to be shown not caring about the fuel situation and alienating the British boat buying public.

    But i agree with you about no other industry facing such a price increase. Again I think the resources at IPC will come in very helpfull because they have the time and resources to be able to research the problem.

    <hr width=100% size=1>Thanks

    Leyton
    (EXTAR Solutions - Software that works for you)

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Cornwall
    Posts
    8,910

    Default Re: Mauling on Scuttlebut.

    I'll have a word at Sealine Monday see what the feelings are, if any to the price rise.
    In a way I'm one of the possible effected, designing and suppling equipment to the marine trade, most to power boats.
    Some on the yacht side see anything green as holy.
    One comment, should there be a data base or start point, of facts, ie what has the EU said, is it tax or vat, what is EU vat / tax, how much is marine diesel acsoss all EU members, what is the average uasge of diesel per owner, what does this represent in money, how many jobs in the industry.

    Brian

    <hr width=100% size=1>
    Kddpowercentre VASR charge

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    French Canals 2007 on, Hull most of winter. previously the Humber , western Greece, western Italy and the south of France.
    Posts
    1,118

    Default Re: Mauling on Scuttlebut.

    I think those who are against the increased tax should read a very well argued letter on PBO pages 24 and 25.

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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Brecon, Wales
    Posts
    7,165

    Default Re: Mauling on Scuttlebut.

    " think those who are against the increased tax should read a very well argued letter on PBO pages 24 and 25."

    Accepting that the letter deals with other issues besides the red diesel issue, I would not say the case made in support of increasing the tax to road fuel levels on red diesel is well argued at all.

    He states "I can see no reason why I and others engaged in a voluntary leisure activity should be subsidised by road users"

    Such a line of thought presupposes that all money belongs to the government, who choose to let us keep some of it - rather than the correct view that the money belongs to us and the government take our money in taxation to spend on our behalf. To make the point even clearer - if the concession ended, do you think that road fuel taxation would drop to compensate? Not at all - the road user (and they are us anyway) would continue to pay the high rates of tax that we do in this country. So Professor Edge's argument is pure nonsense.

    "It seems to me entirely appropriate that is should be expensive to use prodigious quantities of fossil fuels to motor around for leisure."

    It is already expensive - an increase of 300% to 400% would make it impossible for most of us. Using the same argument as the professor states why not tax ocean cruise ships so that they pay 5 per gallon for fuel (I guess they currently pay about 30p to 50p a gallon) - after all, all they do is motor around for leisure! It seems that some things are essential in life the rest is leisure. So a cargo ship carrying containers of TV;s & DVD players should pay 5 per gallon because all it is doing is serving an industry that provides a leisure activity! I really thought that such shallow thinking as put forward in the PBO letter had gone for good I was wrong J

    So no .. its not a well argued case at all just the standard unthinking arguments that are not too well connected with reality.


    <hr width=100% size=1>Paul
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    My Multihull Forum

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Cornwall
    Posts
    8,910

    Default Re: Mauling on Scuttlebut.

    I assume all those flying away on holiday are not on a leisure trip using fosel fuel.

    Brian

    <hr width=100% size=1>
    Kddpowercentre VASR charge

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Brecon, Wales
    Posts
    7,165

    Default Re: Mauling on Scuttlebut.

    Very, very little of our consumption is for simply staying alive - the rest is al about doing things that interest us.
    Even standard consumption of things like water is 90% non-essential.

    In reality the government would not raise any more total tax - probably less - so if anything taxation elsewhere would have to increase.

    If you listen to the news they talk about 'motorists' - that is actually about 90% of the tax paying population - so many other groups are talked about as if they were a detached isolated sect when in practice they are us - many belong to multiple groups such as motorist, house owners, taxpayers, etc. To argue that when I go motor cruising my fuel is being subsidised by 'motorists' is absurd.

    Nor is it a reasoned argument to state to simply state "It seems to me entirely appropriate".

    As soon as you start down the illogical road that Professor Edge has proceeded down with his letter - any logical carrying through of any principle stated just demonstrates how illogical the assumptions behind them are.

    In practice:- no more money will be raised, indeed any analysis would probably show less - The amount used by leisure power boats is a literal drop in the ocean compared to all other modes of consumption - if this goes ahead its a purely political decision that, on balance, will harm the UK. Worst of all, I am beginning to detect undertones in some arguments that are all about looking 'politically correct' rather than actually being correct.

    In the last year I have spent large sums on my boat - all my future expendiiture will go abroad if this tax hike happens - maybe that is what some would want. In practice the weather would probably allow me to do many more trips and so use a lot more fossil fuel :-) Only simpletons do not understand that the behaviour to huge tax rises is an inticate, complex matter and often does not achieve the target it aims for.



    <hr width=100% size=1>Paul
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    My Multihull Forum

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