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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    923

    Default Re: How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfisher 3 View Post
    This would do for me .... Laurent Giles, steel, 275k odd. (see JR of this parish!) ...

    Nice looking boat. Outboard rudder simplifies self steering and inside steering via trimtab on it's trailing edge.That looks like a stainless pipe rail cap, the best way to do it.
    Chocks welded into the bulwark , also the best. The bowsprit could be easily changed for a metal one.
    Visibility from the wheelhouse not so good in smooth water, but no problem in a swell, if you keep the decks clean ahead of it.
    Chain plates running down the hull are pointless on a steel hull. Welding them to the bulwark is much more practical.Hard to comment further without more deck detail, etc . photos.
    Last edited by Brent Swain; 10-03-18 at 23:40.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Barbados (East coast)
    Posts
    4,558

    Default Re: How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Re the link I posted three years ago to the attractive John Atkin 40' gaff steel schooner for US$ 50,000 - she is still for sale, and they are now asking US$ 39,900.
    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989.../United-States

    Also the schooner in this link
    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2005.../United-States
    Here is a useful guide to Barbados - http://www.doyleguides.com/barbados/

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    923

    Default Re: How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bajansailor View Post
    Re the link I posted three years ago to the attractive John Atkin 40' gaff steel schooner for US$ 50,000 - she is still for sale, and they are now asking US$ 39,900.
    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989.../United-States

    Also the schooner in this link
    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2005.../United-States
    Nice wide side decks. The oil canning on the aft bulwarks are an indication the rest of the hull has no filler. Wooden handrails on a steel cabin top are a maintenance time bomb, if it is a steel cabin top. Some were plywood. Where steel meets wood on the outside of any steel boat is a maintenance time bomb. I recently replaced one with aluminium ,much lighter and maintenance free.
    That boat looks like a Colvin Saugeen Witch, which has no headroom over the setees.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    923

    Default Re: How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    John Morris has mentioned that the steel boat he circumnavigated on had maintenance problems. Perhaps he can be more specific on where the problems were, so we can have a discussion on how they can be avoided. How much epoxy on the inside,under the spray foam? Was she spray foamed? Some pictures of deck details ? Wood on the outside? Hatch pictures,etc? Bulwarks ? Vents?
    This could be a very useful discussion for steel boat owners and builders.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    20,440

    Default Re: How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    John Morris has mentioned that the steel boat he circumnavigated on had maintenance problems. Perhaps he can be more specific on where the problems were, so we can have a discussion on how they can be avoided. How much epoxy on the inside,under the spray foam? Was she spray foamed? Some pictures of deck details ? Wood on the outside? Hatch pictures,etc? Bulwarks ? Vents?
    This could be a very useful discussion for steel boat owners and builders.
    I sailed past it today.

    Rigless.jpg

    Rotted out in the bilge sections and too expensive to fix to the standards of the surveyor for her to get her world wide classification as a commercial vessel once again. The through hulls were all welded in place and she had an extremely fair hull.

    No wood and as it was a falling tide and I needed to get the Sailing Cadets back for their bus I couldn't get closer to take any more pictures. I'll try and find some from old albums.

    67' long. Two companionways. A crew of 14 normally with skipper's and mates cabins aft. Watertight bulkheads to meet Cat 0 (worldwide) classification.

    Here's me at the chart table somewhere in the Eastern Atlantic:

    IMG_1424.jpg

    I have no inside knowledge on the insulation or paint finishes used. It was all done at a professional yard. I got to do maintenance at sea and fault finding. Lots of kit on board including five water tanks and three fuel tanks and a water maker, generator etc etc. I didn't circumnavigate on this boat by the way. I never said I did. I did sail her a few thousand miles across various seas/oceans though. Its one of several steel boats I've had the fortune or misfortune to sail/work on. The more recent ones are fishery support vessels for the salmon farming industry in Shetland and Orkney and the Western Isles of Scotland.
    Last edited by john_morris_uk; 14-03-18 at 19:21.
    Semper aliud

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    2,940

    Default Re: How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Nice looking boat, What was her name?

    Interesting the surveyor mentions economics of repair. not can't be repaired. Vessels have a life span. For a commercial vessel. Economics dictate the life span. I suppose a lot of the boats mentioned earlier like J class.
    Economics isn't part of the equation.

    Just my opinion. Non-expert. I have not sailed any steel sail boats. But have spent time on other types of steel boats.

    Areas where its wet. are where you get the problems. sounds silly I suppose. boats are in water so wet. On the outside.
    Boats with dry bilges stand up well. But often they are not dry. Shaft seals type makes a difference, older style with packing are lubricated by a small leak. So an area to look at closely.
    Under the engine.'s.
    The areas you cant see.
    Any tank, which has water in it. Ballast tanks, or even FW.
    Void spaces. need to looked at.
    Anchor, chain lockers? usually forward of collision bulkhead, Wet, high likely hood of damage= High likelihood of corrosion.
    The problem with epoxy coatings is they are hard, being hard they are brittle and crack. when a hull flexes you can get cracks in the coating. steel itself is subject to cracks in high stress areas. Any where this happens. corrosion will happen.
    Anywhere with dissimilar metal immersed in water.
    corrosion often starts along the welds. Cutting out a section of hull plate not to expensive but the frames are going to be expensive. If you can clean them up and put a double plate. But it will corrode again.

    Just my opinion, If you want a steel boat to last. Keep it, clean, dry, inspect regularly and take care of any problems quickly.

    Other big possibly expensive problem. Rotten pipework. can be very expensive. Not sure how much is involved in typical yachts. The bigger the boat? Start mentioning coding?

    So If I was looking at a steel boat. even a new one I would be looking for a modern dry shaft seal.
    An older steel boat. I'd be looking at the frames inside any tanks or voids. The anchor locker, chain locker. The collision bulkhead(if it has one)
    If you see a whiskey ding on the outside. I'd be looking closely for corrosion on the inside, if its a wet area, why the epoxy coating may have failed.
    Steel plate tends to pit. when it corrodes. anywhere the coating breaks down.

    I am not fammiliar with spray foam. My concern with spray foam. what's behind it?

    I know 50 yr old steel vessels which were well looked after and are still sound. I know 15 yr old ones which NFG.
    A friend (I think he is mad) owns an old tug. WW2 era. Still sound. The hull ok but some of the upper works not so much.
    The steel was thicker back then.

    The grade of steel used in initial construction is very important. Modern steel construction is often much lighter.
    So cant take so much loss.

    Restoring an old steel yacht. May make economic sense, but I doubt it. I think its more likely to be a hobby for the independently wealthy.

    One side effect of the Jones act. It makes preserving old steel hulls worthwhile. Which makes sense if you want to use a vessel commercially in the US.

    Finding a 20 year old or even older steel yacht in good shape? Might be worth while.

    Just my opinion. The bigger the boat the more likely. Not being an expert on Yacht design or coding. Bigger cat 0 may be worthwhile. The question being. How many production boats can be coded 0.
    Refurbishing an existing steel boat to cat 0. Might be economic in some cases. If you could get the boat for very good price?

    How much would a new 70ft code 0 boat cost. No clue but probably quite a lot.
    You would have to find a used one which was designed for the same purpose you intend to use it for.
    So why is it for sale?

    If you cant get it surveyed to code 0. What would be the point?
    Last edited by Uricanejack; 15-03-18 at 00:35.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    923

    Default Re: How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uricanejack View Post
    Nice looking boat, What was her name?

    Interesting the surveyor mentions economics of repair. not can't be repaired. Vessels have a life span. For a commercial vessel. Economics dictate the life span. I suppose a lot of the boats mentioned earlier like J class.
    Economics isn't part of the equation.

    Just my opinion. Non-expert. I have not sailed any steel sail boats. But have spent time on other types of steel boats.

    Areas where its wet. are where you get the problems. sounds silly I suppose. boats are in water so wet. On the outside.
    Boats with dry bilges stand up well. But often they are not dry. Shaft seals type makes a difference, older style with packing are lubricated by a small leak. So an area to look at closely.
    Under the engine.'s.
    The areas you cant see.
    Any tank, which has water in it. Ballast tanks, or even FW.
    Void spaces. need to looked at.
    Anchor, chain lockers? usually forward of collision bulkhead, Wet, high likely hood of damage= High likelihood of corrosion.
    The problem with epoxy coatings is they are hard, being hard they are brittle and crack. when a hull flexes you can get cracks in the coating. steel itself is subject to cracks in high stress areas. Any where this happens. corrosion will happen.
    Anywhere with dissimilar metal immersed in water.
    corrosion often starts along the welds. Cutting out a section of hull plate not to expensive but the frames are going to be expensive. If you can clean them up and put a double plate. But it will corrode again.

    Just my opinion, If you want a steel boat to last. Keep it, clean, dry, inspect regularly and take care of any problems quickly.

    Other big possibly expensive problem. Rotten pipework. can be very expensive. Not sure how much is involved in typical yachts. The bigger the boat? Start mentioning coding?

    So If I was looking at a steel boat. even a new one I would be looking for a modern dry shaft seal.
    An older steel boat. I'd be looking at the frames inside any tanks or voids. The anchor locker, chain locker. The collision bulkhead(if it has one)
    If you see a whiskey ding on the outside. I'd be looking closely for corrosion on the inside, if its a wet area, why the epoxy coating may have failed.
    Steel plate tends to pit. when it corrodes. anywhere the coating breaks down.

    I am not fammiliar with spray foam. My concern with spray foam. what's behind it?

    I know 50 yr old steel vessels which were well looked after and are still sound. I know 15 yr old ones which NFG.
    A friend (I think he is mad) owns an old tug. WW2 era. Still sound. The hull ok but some of the upper works not so much.
    The steel was thicker back then.

    The grade of steel used in initial construction is very important. Modern steel construction is often much lighter.
    So cant take so much loss.

    Restoring an old steel yacht. May make economic sense, but I doubt it. I think its more likely to be a hobby for the independently wealthy.

    One side effect of the Jones act. It makes preserving old steel hulls worthwhile. Which makes sense if you want to use a vessel commercially in the US.

    Finding a 20 year old or even older steel yacht in good shape? Might be worth while.

    Just my opinion. The bigger the boat the more likely. Not being an expert on Yacht design or coding. Bigger cat 0 may be worthwhile. The question being. How many production boats can be coded 0.
    Refurbishing an existing steel boat to cat 0. Might be economic in some cases. If you could get the boat for very good price?

    How much would a new 70ft code 0 boat cost. No clue but probably quite a lot.
    You would have to find a used one which was designed for the same purpose you intend to use it for.
    So why is it for sale?

    If you cant get it surveyed to code 0. What would be the point?
    Great post! Right on!
    With steel being cheaper than ballast, it always amazes me that many commercial builders go for thinner plate, down deep, where corrosion is more likely , and weight is not much of a problem. No harm whatever in going much heavier in bilge plates. I have even seen 40 footers with 1/8th inch keel plating, totally irrational . Heavier plate is also far easier to weld and keep fair.
    Lots of epoxy, especially in the bilge, is critical. I have seen new boats here, commercially built, with no epoxy in the bilges. I like to weld a zinc in the low point of the bilge. If there is enough water to cover the zinc, there is enough to make the connection ,and let the zinc protect the steel there.
    One should never use part of the hull as anchor chain locker. A 45 gallon plastic drum does that job well, and is cheap to replace.
    A separate engine sump keeps shaft water from my bilges, and is oily enough to limit corrosion there.I keep my stern tube pumped full of grease, with a grease gun permanently mounted and hooked up to it. Don't trust the modern shaft seals, as if something lands on them, they can sink the boat.
    The worst you get from a stuffing box is a slight drip.
    Designs which choose thicker plate over more framing are well proven, and far more forgiving, when it comes to corrosion. I have seen many hulls lost to corrosion, which were plated with 1/8th ( 3.2 mm )plate which would have been saveable, had they been thicker plate, like 3/16th inch.The thicker plate with less framing has sometimes been much lighter that thin plate with lots of framing. Quicker and easier to build, and much fairer too.
    Hard chine hulls are far more easily replated than round bilged ones, making that option far more doable, and economically feasible. I have seen it done on several occasions, for far less than replacement costs.
    Frameless eliminates a lot of problematic nooks and crannies
    "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."
    Leonardo Da Vinci.
    Simplicity eliminates the most problematic areas, when it comes to corrosion and maintenance ,nooks and crannies.
    I put plexi windows in the inspection plates on all built in tanks, so I can see the inside of tanks any time, by simply lifting the floor boards.
    The problem with removeable tanks is you don't know whats happening behind them ,until there is a problem ,something I have eliminated with built in tanks, with plexi windows on top.
    Smaller, simpler boats are far, far less maintenance than the varnish on some pretentious boats.The varnished cabin sides, toe rails, hatches, hand rails, etc, on my first boat were far more maintenance than all the maintenance on both my steel boats combined, since then. Unlike varnish , steel was functional , and had practical advantages. I lost my first boat on a Fijian coral reef, in conditions which would have not even damaged a steel boat.The steel would have been far more advantageous than the varnished brightwork, in that situation. The sea showed no sympathy, nor favoritism for "pretty."
    Last edited by Brent Swain; 16-03-18 at 22:46.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    923

    Default Re: How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Here is a great post from another thread on this site.

    In the bilge I tend to use ceramic filled epoxy so to give a nice white easy clean surface so its easy to clean and keep water free. White also allows you to see and rust coming through very easy for subsequent repair.
    Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...6yjgrBO2IJH.99

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