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  1. #11
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    May 2007
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    Default Re: Starting area collision. Who to blame?

    Quote Originally Posted by awol View Post
    Not really a problem. Boat X was not racing ("racing" and RRS don't turn on until the preparatory signal) so RRS don't apply - protest committee won't be interested. So it's a simple port/starboard under IRPCS where both are likely to carry blame with boat Y needing a pretty good case to avoid the bigger part.
    Wrong.
    Racing rules apply to boats intending to race.

  2. #12
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    May 2007
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    Default Re: Starting area collision. Who to blame?

    Stbd boat is dsq for failing to keep clear of a boat that was racing when she was not. (assuming prep signal had been given!)
    Port boat is likely DSQ for failing to take sufficient action to prevent a collision resulting in damage.
    Unless she can prove she had no opportunity to keep clear.

    If the prep signal had not been made, neither boat is racing, but both are still under RRS.
    RRS is different from IRPCS, it has clear restrictions on acquiring right of way and changing course, where colregs are more about two boats approaching each other on steady courses from over the horizon.
    So, it is likely to be more complex.
    Was the port boat keeping clear of another boat that the stbd boat also had to keep clear of?
    Start lines are rarely a two boat problem.
    How long had each boat been on its course?

    Don't forget it is possible for both to be in the wrong under RRS, but that has limited influence in a civil court should it come to that.
    Last edited by lw395; 14-07-15 at 10:17.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Me Edinburgh, boat JWD
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    5,166

    Default Re: Starting area collision. Who to blame?

    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    No I don't that's right. The RRS offer explicit methods to protect boats before their start frominterference from boats that have been racing or intend to race in the same event, but in a later start
    I presume you are referring to
    24.1 - If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing.
    and the preamble to Section 2 offers
    The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 24.1.
    So, yes, you are right and I was wrong, but there would have to be a lot more to it than a simple t-bone of a starboard tack yacht. If the collision happened before the preparatory signal but after the starting sequence had begun then 24.1 doesn't apply.

  4. #14
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    Dec 2003
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    5,636

    Default Re: Starting area collision. Who to blame?

    Quote Originally Posted by awol View Post
    So, yes, you are right and I was wrong, but there would have to be a lot more to it than a simple t-bone of a starboard tack yacht.
    If the collision happened before the preparatory signal but after the starting sequence had begun then 24.1 doesn't apply.
    Agreed, in fact I'd take a bet that the ultimate juxtaposition of the boats in question was the result of a sequence of argy-bargy WTF moments!

    Re your second point, you may or may not be right subject to the specific SIs, but with the normal ones you would, "Boats whose warning signal has not been made shall avoid the starting area during thestarting sequence for other races." That said, I've never sailed in a big boat race where one fleet has received its warning signal while another has yet to go. Someone will no doubt come along to tell me I'm wrong! ....the Boat Repairers Classic, or something

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Nelson New Zealand
    Posts
    589

    Default Re: Starting area collision. Who to blame?

    As I understand and without reference to clauses, there are two different strands in the interpretation.
    First is that racing rules do not trump standard port starboard rules in any circumstances. If, for example, a hypothetical Joe Soap who is not racing or even aware of the race, blunders on through the race or pre-start , he is guilty of discourtesy but still entitled to Colregs right of way if he is on stbd. So any Port tack boats whether in racing or pre-start or whatever still need to give way to Joe Soap who is on stbd.
    We have seen in these forums many times that a cry of "but i am racing!" doesn't give automatic right of way.
    (Exceptions obviously when Harbour Master applies restrictions through proper channels for Olympics etc, but doesnt seem to be the case here, and even if it were so, colregs still apply.)

    So the second strand is what can the race committee do? Well the race committee can penalise through points or disqualification if Joe Soap is part of the event, and is "in the way" in contravention of sailing instructions. This still doesn't give the Port Tack boat any right of way.
    However if Joe Soap is not particpating in the event then essentially the race committee have no jurisdiction over him. If there is a restricted water thing in place then HM can apply legal penalties but that is different.

    There are some racing rules that do take effect from time of start of racing, but they only apply to the boats that are both racing. Buoy room etc. A boat that is racing must still follow normal colregs when it meets a boat that is not racing and that seems to be the case here.
    Of course if there is a collision, you are automatically at fault even if you had right of way for not doing all in your power to avoid collision. So as awol says both boats are in the wrong, but port tacker will probably carry the larger portion of blame.
    Aiming to live forever or die in the attempt!

  6. #16
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    May 2007
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    38,876

    Default Re: Starting area collision. Who to blame?

    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    Agreed, in fact I'd take a bet that the ultimate juxtaposition of the boats in question was the result of a sequence of argy-bargy WTF moments!

    Re your second point, you may or may not be right subject to the specific SIs, but with the normal ones you would, "Boats whose warning signal has not been made shall avoid the starting area during thestarting sequence for other races." That said, I've never sailed in a big boat race where one fleet has received its warning signal while another has yet to go. Someone will no doubt come along to tell me I'm wrong! ....the Boat Repairers Classic, or something
    Cowes week under the old rules?
    10 minute gun on outer line was 5 minute gun on the inner line etc.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,636

    Default Re: Starting area collision. Who to blame?

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    Cowes week under the old rules?
    10 minute gun on outer line was 5 minute gun on the inner line etc.
    Gosh yes, that's right! As a matter of interest, and only if you happen to remember, can you recall what the old SIs specified to keep the t < 5 fleet apart from the 10 > t > 5 fleet?
    Last edited by dom; 14-07-15 at 11:00.

  8. #18
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    May 2007
    Posts
    38,876

    Default Re: Starting area collision. Who to blame?

    Quote Originally Posted by John the kiwi View Post
    As I understand and without reference to clauses, there are two different strands in the interpretation.
    First is that racing rules do not trump standard port starboard rules in any circumstances. If, for example, a hypothetical Joe Soap who is not racing or even aware of the race, blunders on through the race or pre-start , he is guilty of discourtesy but still entitled to Colregs right of way if he is on stbd. So any Port tack boats whether in racing or pre-start or whatever still need to give way to Joe Soap who is on stbd............
    I attended a rules presentation where the speaker, an international judge and coach of some repute started by asking us to list the situations where a starboard boat needs to keep clear of a port boat. There are apparently more than 5 distinct scenarios.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,868

    Default Re: Starting area collision. Who to blame?

    Quote Originally Posted by John the kiwi View Post
    As I understand and without reference to clauses, there are two different strands in the interpretation.
    First is that racing rules do not trump standard port starboard rules in any circumstances. If, for example, a hypothetical Joe Soap who is not racing or even aware of the race, blunders on through the race or pre-start , he is guilty of discourtesy but still entitled to Colregs right of way if he is on stbd. So any Port tack boats whether in racing or pre-start or whatever still need to give way to Joe Soap who is on stbd.
    We have seen in these forums many times that a cry of "but i am racing!" doesn't give automatic right of way.
    (Exceptions obviously when Harbour Master applies restrictions through proper channels for Olympics etc, but doesnt seem to be the case here, and even if it were so, colregs still apply.)

    So the second strand is what can the race committee do? Well the race committee can penalise through points or disqualification if Joe Soap is part of the event, and is "in the way" in contravention of sailing instructions. This still doesn't give the Port Tack boat any right of way.
    However if Joe Soap is not particpating in the event then essentially the race committee have no jurisdiction over him. If there is a restricted water thing in place then HM can apply legal penalties but that is different.

    There are some racing rules that do take effect from time of start of racing, but they only apply to the boats that are both racing. Buoy room etc. A boat that is racing must still follow normal colregs when it meets a boat that is not racing and that seems to be the case here.
    Of course if there is a collision, you are automatically at fault even if you had right of way for not doing all in your power to avoid collision. So as awol says both boats are in the wrong, but port tacker will probably carry the larger portion of blame.
    In this case both boats were "intending to race". Therefore the Rules do apply to both of them (see the preamble to Part 2 of the RRS). And the RRS over-ride Colrregs when both parties are racing.

  10. #20
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    May 2007
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    38,876

    Default Re: Starting area collision. Who to blame?

    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    Gosh yes, that's right! As a matter of interest, and only if you happen to remember, can you recall what the old SIs specified to keep the t < 5 fleet apart from the 10 > t > 5 fleet?
    I don't recall the exact SI's but I can remember some stressful moments trying to get back to the correct side of our ODM in a small keelboat doing what seemed like 4 knots in 3.99 knots of tide. Plus in the old days, you had to get close enough to the castle to read the course board after the 10 minute gun. The real bloodshed was normally a few hundred yards up the Green though, when all the fleets get mixed up bouncing off the rocks to avoid the worst of the tide.

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