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Thread: Fair for all

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
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    1

    Default Fair for all

    Whilst I agree with keeping boating as cheap as possible, it is getting a bit tiring listening to all you diesel powered boat owners winging about having to give up boating just because you may have to come in line with petrol powered boats.

    The petrol boat owner has always had to pay pump prices, plus a bit more for fuel, without any relaxation or concession.

    It is about time that you stopped moaning about how much it is going to cost you and get into the real world

    If we all support each other as one big happy family, as supposedly we do, what about asking the chancellor to reduce the duty on boat petrol and add the reduction onto diesel to even it up for all of us. Now that would be a good idea.


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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
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    Brecon, Wales
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    Default Re: Fair for all

    Whilst I agree that petrol is very expensive in the UK, petrol boat owners know what they are buying into and in the main petrol is only used for small boats that do not go far. mainly just local around the bay etc. These are very different to the larger crusing power boats.

    If you want to see the effect on boat prices try looking for a rwin 300 hp petrol crusing boat - if you find one look at its price - basically 99.99% of such boats are diesel.

    The simple fact is that if the fuel price reaches road price levels the cruising power boats in the UK will largely cease to exist - there would only be a rump left ... that is the reality.

    Your simplistic approach is not based on any logic.

    You give no details about yourself whatsoever and accuse us of moaning and not being real. So you obviously belong to a world that welcome overnight price increases of 300% to 400%. What hobbies do you persue - sailing? or do you won a small petrol power boat?

    I would suggest that you identify who you are, what boat if any you own then provide a sensible arguement to support why such a hike in diesel prices should be applied.





    <hr width=100% size=1>Paul
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    My Multihull Forum

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
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    844

    Default Re: Fair for all

    of course I waited for Gludy to have a go first but - it is very difficult to know where you're coming from with such an empty bio.

    I think it is easy to agree on the surface of your argument that petrol users are being ripped off by paying Road Duty prices for not using the roads. However I think your underlying but not expressed premise is that the Government are only seeking a revenue-neutral change i.e. reduce tax on sea petrol balanced by increasing sea diesel income. Dream on, they only want to raise duty and their income, after all, our petrol duty is not harmonised with low, average or high european duty levels - ours are the highest.

    One problem you may have missed is that there will be an underlying need to supply red diesel to still-exempt users like fishermen and ships even if they try and force full duty +/- VAT on leisure diesel. Sure the red exemption is a bit of an anachronism and I think it may end up with us leisure users paying full VAT - that is something retailers can cope with without duplicating tanks + pumps. The problem with that is the pressure is for harmonisation is not on the VAT but on the duty.

    Boat owners who have bought boats that use diesel optionally (i.e. not small sportsboats where petrol may well be preferable and not bigger boats where petrol engines just do not have the punch) will feel they have invested in more expensive engines for their greater economy which is proposed to be denied. One of Gludy's main points (and with which I agree) is that loss of red exemption will NOT affect the "big, fat, rich" boaters - they will move abroad or, like us, will fill up abroad but will hit the more economically marginal and truly representative boater harder as they don't have that option. If they give up powerboating and the fatter cats pay in France or the Channel Isles, then the tax take may well reduce before one even considers the loss from boating-associated businesses.

    Funny as it may sound initially, IMHO the best way to help petrol boaters is for them to help fight off the loss of derogation on red diesel, when that is won I feel confident that diesel users will be very vociferous in your support to remove the road duty on non-road use for petrol in boats. If the red derogation is lost, there will be no basis of reducing duty on petrol at all.

    Anthony

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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
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    Default Re: Fair for all

    "One of Gludy's main points (and with which I agree) is that loss of red exemption will NOT affect the "big, fat, rich" boaters - they will move abroad or, like us, will fill up abroad but will hit the more economically marginal and truly representative boater harder as they don't have that option."

    Yes, yes, yes.

    From where I stand it will kill the exact boating sector you identify so well and if anything will greatly reduce the numbers of cruising power boaters leaving only a very small rump. Boating is based not on the the large boat rich cats but on the wider foundation of those who sacrifice a lot to be on the water. Without this foundation of keen motor boaters the UK power boating scene will be destroyed.



    <hr width=100% size=1>Paul
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    My Multihull Forum

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2001
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    15,479

    Default All shook up

    Or buy a diesel boat, but then as a troll I don't suppose you'll ever post again.

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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Surrey
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    Default Re: Fair for all

    "I feel confident that diesel users will be very vociferous in your support to remove the road duty on non-road use for petrol in boats"............in an ideal world maybe. BUT we don't live in an ideal world. The past has shown us that. That and the fact that the Government wouldn't even consider the idea. You and I both know that along with most of the populace. Still one can dream!

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  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
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    844

    Default Re: Fair for all

    Promises, even to a suspected troll, are easy and, along with the squadrons of flying pigs, IF we get the derogation extended or permanent (some hope) the I think I would be quite happy to support petrol boat users in trying to get road fuel duty removed (iIF they had supported the diesel issue in numbers) - Why not? One can only dream

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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
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    Brecon, Wales
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    Default Re: Fair for all

    Its a thousand time more difficult ro roll a tax back than it is to stop one being imposed.
    There is simply no chance of petrol being rolled back for marine use.

    <hr width=100% size=1>Paul
    Paul
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    My Multihull Forum

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    ked into poverty by children
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    8,517

    Default Re: Fair for all

    No taxation without representation worked pretty well in the C18th. Maybe Bliar and Brown and their gang need reminding that they don't represent many of us, gaining under 25% of possible votes at the last election.

    I wonder what Tony Blair does for fun, I confidently trust that a Conservative Chancellor will suggest taxing it out of existence:-)



    <hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.
    Two beers please, my friend is paying.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Brecon, Wales
    Posts
    7,165

    Default Re: Fair for all

    There are a fair number of taxes without representatiojn - business rates for one.
    These rates are so high in some town centres that they are rapidly turning into charity shop centres!

    The fuel used by cruising power boats is so small as to be insignificant in terms of taxataion - less than £20m no matter how you look at it. A rise to road fuel levels would make it even smaller. We just have to make the problems so much of a headache for government that it is not worth their while changing it.

    <hr width=100% size=1>Paul
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    My Multihull Forum

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