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  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2001
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    15,475

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    Well said Col, couldn't agree more!

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  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    2,025

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    Col

    loads of stuff to look at :-)

    Have a look at these figures, they come from the EU and are what prompted the exhaust and emmission regs for all water craft fitted with an engine.

    "
    Directive 94/25/EC is a New Approach Directive dealing with the design and construction of recreational craft. It became fully operational in June 1998, after a four-year transition period.

    ICOMIA estimates that the total boat park in the EU/EEA countries, including Switzerland, was in 1998 in the order of:
    Sailboats: 821 506
    Motorboats: 3 628 000
    Inflatables: 170 000
    (not already included with motorboats)
    Personal watercraft: 10 700
    Total: 4 619 506
    This figure equates to an approximate ratio of one boat to every 70 members of the European population.

    As shown above, the majority of pleasure boats in Europe are motorboats.

    "

    I know the numbers are 6 years old but they give an idea of the mix. Raggies are around one sixth of the population in terms of units. But very small in terms of horsepower. Draw your own conclusions on fuel usage. Personally I do not have a Mobo vs Raggies thing, how people choose to enjoy themselves is up to them as long as they don’t injure me in some way or other. My boat; 43ft raggy has a 56hp engine, my pal in the next berth has a same length mobo he has 700hp. I use around 300 litres per season, he uses 6000.

    So the amount of fuel a power boat uses is vast compared to a yacht but even this is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Incidentally I heat my house with oil and I use about 2000L per annum.

    What really upsets me is the way people are manipulated by the media and government to accept unproven unsubstantiated ideas as facts so they then accept the need for some expensive corrective taxation.

    I cannot find the numbers right now (it was 12 years ago I looked at this stuff) but they go something like this, one volcanic eruption releases more CO2 and other horrible stuff into the atmosphere than all the fossil fuel burnt by man since man first appeared on the planet 65M years ago - there are around 60 eruptions every year and under the sea some eruptions have been going on for millions of years.

    There is a growing belief that the earth “manufactures” carbon rich substances previously thought to have been created by fossilisation.

    So it would appear that oil and gas are not what we thought they were and will probably not run out - but these words are not what the politicians want to hear. The truth is no one really knows.

    So do we understand global warming? not a chance, can we do anything about it? yes we can learn to live with the consequences, but focusing attention on our insignificant contribution to the CO2 issue is not it. And by the way I am not attempting to trivialise the situation - its dire but taxing fuel is not the solution.


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  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Brecon, Wales
    Posts
    7,165

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    Thats a very refreshing look at the issue. A very good contribution.


    <hr width=100% size=1>Paul
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    My Multihull Forum

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    10,434

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    <blockquote><font size=1>Quote from previous post:</font><hr>

    Thats a very refreshing look at the issue. A very good contribution.

    <hr></blockquote>

    I agree, I thought I would add a footnote here that my objections to high fuel usage are not about CO2 emissions but sustainable fuel, which oil is not.

    Since we depend on oil for many other things than fuel, it does worry me that we (the planet) use and waste far too much. I understand in the big picture motor yachts and other high power vessels are minute, but that does not mean it becomes acceptable. Last season I used about 60 ltrs of diesel, will be at the boat tomorrow and will probably have the heating on, but that used teeny amounts.

    On the other hand, if oil does run out, it might get the inventors out of the woodwork to actually produce and market a different propulsion unit. It seems mad after a little over 100 years, the internal combustion engine which is inherently inefficient has not been replaced, in fact it is still pretty much the same engine as the first with better bells and whistles.

    There must be a better way!

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  5. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
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    10,434

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    <blockquote><font size=1>Quote from previous post:</font><hr>

    The biggest polluter at present is aircraft fuel and. I think I am right in saying this will soon represent well over 50% of all our CO2 pollution.

    <hr></blockquote>

    Agreed 100%, but with so much airfreight what can we do, people will not wait 2 months for deliveries. International business would be killed overnight if aircraft had to pay the proper prices for fuel. It would also be a nail in the coffin the overseas holidays, though this would be good for the UK economy.

    Personally it would have no big impact on me, I hate flying, I do everything I can to avoid it, though this is the same argument as a raggie saying the loss of red does not hurt as I don't use it.

    Soon, I believe, the World will HAVE to do something, but it will wait until it is backed firmly down a blind alley with no choices.

    <blockquote><font size=1>Quote from previous post:</font><hr>

    There are many areas where a lot of resources are used in total in providing pleasure to very few ... sailing is one, have you ever worked out the fuel cost that goes into the making of a sailing boat? its very high.

    <hr></blockquote>

    Yes I don't doubt that it is, but... My vessel was built in 1977. I have just bought new sails, I expect a minimum of 8 years out of them as long as I don't damage them accidentally along the way. That would IMO even out the initial costs to nearly nothing across that sort of timespan.

    An average modern motor boat by virtue of all that plastic and modern floor to ceiling furnishing and.. and... and... must use way more oil in her manufacture before we even start on annual usage.

    Sailing could be looked at as one off start up and then 'quite' green from then on, wouldn't you say.



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  6. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Brecon, Wales
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    7,165

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    I think this thread is getting somewhere, we are now talking about oil usage period, not pollution and I am sure you will accept that oil is used in a multitude of ways - so the question becomes how to regulate it use.

    It seems that instead of letting the market decide that you wish to impose some sort of rationing based upon a 'fair' distribution system ...... but you have failed to answer any of my questions about others using oil from private aviation through to folks consuming vast quantities on ocena cruise holidays, air trips etc.....

    In fact even building a very large house, or having the Queen live in Buckingham Palace would be squandering oil ..... the purchase of that very expensive yacht that just ran aground was in effect consuming great quantities of oil for very few people ... there are tens of thousands of ways of those with more money consuming more oil as well as, of course, the fact that everyone in the Westerm world consumes much more than the under developed world.

    So if you feel so strongly about the issue, please explain your views of these issues ... under what basis would you ration those folks choosing to spend a 100 gallons on going 60 miles? Would you apply the same logic to all oil consumption because if you did you would stop society as we know it and basically end up with a central , type rationed society that has already been proved to have failed - polluting and wasting like mad along the way.

    I would like to hear your wider view on these points and then the placing of the gas guzzling gin palace in the contxt of those wider views.

    Of course all resources are limited .. its the first rule of economics, so the same arguements that you are promoting can be applied to almost anything.

    My view is that the market is still the best regulator, albeit that it may need some moderation from time to time, usually to ensure it a free market, and that is the natural role of governement.

    <hr width=100% size=1>Paul
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    My Multihull Forum

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Cornwall
    Posts
    8,905

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    What is the relevance on polution from UK motor boats, to say the polution from the Chinesse underground coal fires, which generate more polution than the total from all the motor vehicles in the USA.
    When someone comes up with facts and figuers, other than, "by not doing it it must make a differance", I can make a educated comment.

    Brian

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  8. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Norwich UK
    Posts
    12

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    A quick comment Paul. You have mentioned private aviation a couple of times . Avgas is taxed at about 28p a litre, it isn't tax free like red diesel.

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  9. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,895

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    Red diesel isn't tax free.

    Rick

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  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Caribbean at the moment
    Posts
    23,960

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    1) Do you think the current level of fuel consumption by 35ft sport cruisers is acceptable and responsible for a sustained planet 10, 15, 20 or so years down the line. Please try to ignore direct comparisons to aircraft, freighters, offshore trawlers etc. Answer only regarding a fast sports cruiser.

    Yes, sorry, it's fine. It looks bad, but the real fuel used to make a boat is in the making of it, not running it.

    (2) Does one mans pleasure override the big picture because he can afford to fill his boat tanks with non sustainable fuel?
    Yes, really it does. Follow this to its logical conclusion and everything ends up a bit rubbish, with houses all small and so on. The fuel will run out but then, the planet will also hit the sun eventually too.


    (3) If a new breed of engines were designed that used a 1/4 of the fuel for equivalent hp would you upgrade?
    Maybe.

    (3a) Would you only upgrade if you obtained personal wealth gain? what time scale would be acceptable to start seeing payback? Or would you upgrade for the sake of the planet?
    Unlikely top se payback. Also, very very unlikel to happen. try and get a job with an engine research orgainstion and they'll tell you straight - everthing has been sorted, really. There's no feasible 75% saving.


    (3b) Be honest, how many people reading question 3 also swung the scenario to an engine 4 times more powerful for the same fuel as today?
    Not sure I understand the question. I drive a car 100 times more thirsty than a bicycle, so what?


    (4) Can you empathise with some raggies who see your fuel usage as greedy and only see the big fuel guzzlers as pollutants, this also includes noise? Or do you think it is jealousy and has more to do with wakes?
    No, sorry, i can't. The overall fuel consumption including making the thing is not that dissimilar. Ally masts, special gear, plus the fact that the engine hours on a sailing boat are much higher per year all make me feel fine. raggies just put up with more pirvations, lower standar of finsih to the boats which makes them feel as though somehow, they're sddaving the planet. They most certainly aren't.

    (5) If you do accept that fuel usage on the planet is too high, what do you plan to do about it, ditch the Chelsea Tractor, limit fuel on the boat. I am no angel BTW, my car engine is far to big for my needs, I never said this was easy, I am just looking for views. Should we always wait for someone else to take the first step, why should you stop using the 4x4 when everyone else keeps theirs.

    Stop worrying. The current fuel will run out. Then, there'll be something else. BNefore that, there's another 100 years of fuel under antarctica.


    (6) Should everything just carry on as it is, if someone can afford a big boat which uses tons of fuel then good on them, if they can afford it then it is no one else’s right to tell them how to spend their money or how much fuel they can use?

    Yep, pretty much. It's the same system that gives people a nice house, nice car, nice everything. Going to the moon, and these days dirt cheap airline travel all uses loads and loads more fuel than powerboats.



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