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  1. #21
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    Jul 2004
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    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    Shipswoofy

    Are you sure oil is unsustainable? I remember when it was going to run out in 1960. My findings back in 1991 were that we don’t know; but it probably wont run out – the planet seems to breed the stuff. There is a lot of carbon that we cannot account for, there are lots of “natural” processes we don’t understand and probably many more we don’t even know about. So we can ask the question “is oil a sustainable resource?” but we are nowhere near answering it. The question “will cheap oil run out and oil become economically unsustainable?” is valid and the answer is a resounding yes. There’s lots of the stuff about it just becomes more expensive to get at it. Markets take care of that with or without taxation.

    In the end it all depends on what you want to believe, which is where I bow out of the discussion, I never tell anyone what to believe in.

    Cheers


    David

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  2. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
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    2,577

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    This is not aimed at Marsupial BTW.

    My point (in a roundabout way I supose) is that it strikes me there are too many people on these forums that are down crying mobos as being hugely wastful of fuel, but hypocritically driving "larger-than-need-be" cars.......( I've seen what some sailors arrive in, at places such as Mercury)

    The average annual use of most mobos is in the region of 50-100 hrs.
    If you take a http://www.ncp.ims.hr/Princess boat as being an average boat. That boat is going to use a minimum of 2500 (50ltrs an hour for 50 hrs) It will use a maximum of 7000ltrs (Max fuel consuption of 70ltrs an hour, all the time for 100hrs) ie, flat out everywhere!
    So call it an overall ave of 5000ltr pa.

    Ok. Now look at your <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.carpages.co.uk/guide/toyota/>Land cruisers </A> at 17.3 mpg (combined ave) the average UK annual mileage is 12,000miles
    then that landcruiser will use an ave of 3468ltr....Not a million miles away from our ave Princess is it?
    Now look at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tiscali.co.uk/motoring/roadtests/roadtests_newcarnet/2002/04/11/story_223.html>Range Rovers</A> quoted urban mpg at 12.7mpg X 12,000 miles of dropping junior at school, and then to the gym before going to friends house in the afternoon equals 4724ltrs PA. Closer still to our Princess.

    Now for the crux..

    You don't need a 4X4 to drive around town. I don't need a mobo to get around the Solent.
    I don't criticize your choice to own a 4X4, Don't criticize my choice to own a mobo.
    (There's a lot more 4x4's in daily use than mobos anyway)

    Are thes raggies that are so quick to condemn mobo fuel useage as quick to codemn their Range rover driving (but Ben Jen sailing) friends?

    Until You can hand-on-heart say you are doing everything to reduce pollution/ Fuel useage of your own (and not just the type of boat you own) Then I'm afraid your arguments don't wash with me.


    <hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/colspics> Cols Picture Album</A>


  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
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    4,524

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    I humbly bow to your method of thinking and proclaim you righteous.

    All hail Col for his wiseness.

    <hr width=100% size=1>Dom
    http://www.soltron.co.uk>Soltron</A>
    <A
    Dom

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    12

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    I'm interested in where the average annual useage figures for Mobos comes from.
    50 to 100 hours average use doesn't really compare with the 12000 miles used for the comparison with 'oversize cars'. The only thing that compares is the fact that they are both 'annual' useage figures. At 12000 miles ANY car is being used far more than a Mobo however you compare them. If you want to make a comparison why not use the hourly use figure (50 hours) quoted for the mobo for the car? Doesn't get quite the same result does it. And while we are at it we ought to examine the maths used in the example. For the Land Cruiser quoted: 12000 miles at 17.3 mpg is 693.6 gallons which converts to 3153 litres, almost 10% lower than the 3468 litre figure quoted and nearly 40% less than the Princess used for comparison! A similar error is made for the Range Rover as well by the way

    There are plenty of good arguments against a rise in red diesel tax but poor mathematics and the dubious use of statistics is not one of them. They are far too easily turned against you.

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  5. #25
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    Jun 2002
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    57,286

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    becuase 50-100 hours is the industry average for motorboat usage. 12,000 miles is fairly typical car usage. Why do you think these are unrealistic?

    <hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    12

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    If you read my post you will see that at no time did I say the figures you gave were 'unrealistic'. What I said was that they don't really compare in anything other than the fact that they are annual useage figures.

    Let's put it another way. You quote 50 to 100 hundred hours for mobo use, no problem. However you then quote 12000 miles for a car. You are not comparfing like with like. Let's convert the 12000 miles to hours, just like the mobo.

    To be generous lets say the car averages 40 miles an hour, a bit high for taking the kids to school and going to the gym but we'll accept that. 12000 / 40 equals 300 hours...hardly the same as the mobo at 100 hours max is it. In fact if we then go on to divide the cars fuel consumption by three, just to make it a fair comparison to the mobo hours fuel useage we find the car down to 1051 litres and suddenly our car is using almost 70% less fuel than the mobo.

    So, no useage of the terms unrealistic just not comparing like with like in anything other than annual useage.

    100 hours does sound a bit low. Do you guys with mobos really only use em for 100 hours a year even with cheap red diesel?

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  7. #27
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    Jun 2002
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    57,286

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    What's wrong with comparing annual usage figures. I really don't understand, as most fuel consumption for motor boats is based on hourly usage.

    The 100 hours for most users on the mobo forum would be quite low, but the 50-100 is industry average. Many boats are used as floating holiday cottages, trailed boats don't do so many hours as they are often taken to the coast or river for an hour or two poodling around the bay etc.

    <hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni

  8. #28
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    Jul 2004
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    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    Ah yes but then most trailed boats will have a petrol outboard, they are not used much - partly because of convenience and the huge cost implications of running the engine.

    Would you like some more numbers to help this debate along?


    These figures come from the

    Directive 94/25/EC on the approximation of the laws, regulations and
    administrative provisions of the Member States relating to recreational craft

    (the same source as other numbers I have posted on this thread)

    They do enable us to bang a peg in the sand and make more informed arguments

    Emissions 1998 Baseline

    Spark ignition engines
    CO in tons/year 154 011
    HC in tons/year 65 148
    NOx in tons/year 3 424
    Particulate matter (not applicable to spark ignition engines)
    Compression ignition engines
    CO in tons/year 868
    HC in tons/year 478
    NOx in tons/year 6 779
    Particulate matter 544


    The same report suggests that total CO emissions are 36,000 tonnes BUT IN 1990 and of that total for non road engines was 5,000 tonnes - but non road means all the other engines you can think of.

    By 1998 it is claimed that 868 tonnes came from boats, but the study is flawed by the fact that after 1990 and before 1998 cleaner more fuel-efficient engines were being sold.

    Engine sales in Europe in 1998 (in units)

    Outboard engines 196 700

    Inboard compression ignition 26 000

    Inboard spark-ignition 4 916

    Personal Watercraft 10 700



    Two things strike me about these numbers.

    1. There are not many diesel engines in boats, but they produce a lot of particulates that we know are carcinogenic.


    2. There are not many diesel engines sold each year and some of those will end up in commercial craft - the source does not make that point but it stands to reason that the engine manufacturers do not know the status of the end user when they sell an engine.

    So in my opinion we have a government that is (appears) to be willing to upset a large of number of people over an issue that equates to the "thin end of nothing". There is no empirical proof that removing red diesel will makje a scrap of difference to anything except the attitudes of lots of people towards "the government" and or Brussels etc.

    However that’s not to say that there aren’t ethical considerations concerning the use of diesel fuel in pleasure craft but I am not sure they are not any different from any such dilemma in any situation where enjoyment is the object of the exercise.

    In this I tend to side with a guy called Sagan who suggests that we are put on this planet to enjoy ourselves and ethics is a (any) code of living that allows us to do that but not at somebody else’s detriment. Interestingly all human culture has devised a set of rules that are remarkably similar in this respect. So if you upset someone’s enjoyment you are acting unethically, anything that harms somebody’s right to enjoyment is therefore unethical. But exploring these ideas only (usually) raises more ethical dilemmas.

    Is operating a sports boat unethical, is it any more or less “right” than a yacht? I don’t think so, but it depends how you use them. If you run the engines and fill up the basin with carcinogenic particulates then yes it certainly is; by any code of ethics harming other people and your self is wrong, its just that the harm comes a bit quicker with a sports boat than a yacht.

    Does ownership of pleasure boats do harm to other people? Well yes it does inasmuch as boats use resources that could have been used in another way to make someone else’s life more enjoyable – but then that would be making my life less enjoyable – impasse - so we have a market that offers choice to try to overcome that objection, but its not perfect, some people cannot participate in the market.

    In the light of the above and in line my previous posts on the red diesel debate I suggest that all tax is unethical and should be abolished forthwith. That sailor’s whoever they are should have consideration for themselves and everyone else around them and be free to what ever they like as long as they do no harm.



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  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    7,163

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    Do you want a job? :-)

    <hr width=100% size=1>Paul
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    http://www.multihulls4us.com

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    17,818

    Default Re: A small question of ethics

    If it is unethical to act in such a way as to "upset someones enjoyment" then surely it can work both ways - if we didn't use our boats then we would have less demand for new/spare bits resulting in the lack of work related enjoyment in our marine and associate industries.

    The removal of Red Deisel for pleasure users is probably going to result in a decrease in engine use - requireing less parts/servicing per annum ultimately resulting in the manufacturers and engineers not being able to enjoy their work so much .....
    So it would be unethical for our government to revoke red deisel!

    Just as an aside - do charter yachts qualify as commercial vessels and therefore red deisel? In which case - my yacht is up for charter - 100% booked by me .. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

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