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  1. #111
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    Oct 2010
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    456

    Default Re: Is wind vane steering necessary....

    Quote Originally Posted by co256 View Post
    Page 14

    And not a single picture of a trim tab windvane worth looking at...
    For building the trim tab, I take a 11 inch wide piece of 16 gauge stainless, the length of the trailing edge of the rudder, minus about 3 inches, and put a bend well over 90 degrees in the centre .This bend is best done on a sheet metal hand brake, altho scoring it with a grinder ,and bending it by hand works. Then I bend it around a piece of half inch stainless sch 40 pipe ,the trim tab shaft . I leave about a half inch of balance on it, then weld right thru the 16 gauge to the pipe, before pulling the edges together in a nice airfoil shape. If , after the first bend, both sides are equal, 5 1/2inches, and you match both sides on the trailing edges, it should be symetrical. Best double check it with a bent welding rod .If you use tiny , 1/4 inch tacks every three inches, you can tap one side or the other,to tap it symetrical and straight, before fully welding it. I find that propping it up at a 45 degree angle, and using one inch welds, one can easily weld 16 gauge with stick welding.Put several passes on before grinding , to make sure you don't grind the weld off too much. Laying a big grinding disc on the flat, gives you a much straighter edge.

  2. #112
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    Oct 2010
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    456

    Default Re: Is wind vane steering necessary....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfisher 3 View Post
    This bloke sounds madder than Bernard Moitessier ... and he was as mad as a hatter! ...
    Libelous personal slander ?
    Unlike his critics , Bernard was doing it. ( living aboard and cruising full time.)
    Friends have told me the same.

  3. #113
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
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    Home near Exeter, boat in Plymouth
    Posts
    19,437

    Default Re: Is wind vane steering necessary....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    I have never found white decks to be hot, so don't call me a liar neither.
    You are making a fool of yourself, claiming your one trip expertise is more relevant than my over 40 years of steel boat , hands on experience in building, (over 3 dozen of them) maintaining, living aboard and cruising in them.
    I have never liked covering decks with anything which would hide corrosion problems, or trap water under it. With paint, you can see what is happening, and promptly deal with any problems early on. Coverings hide any problem, until it becomes a major problem. A bit of sand in your paint gives as good a non skid as anything, for super cheap. Yet another example where spending more gets lesser results.
    Sounds like your epoxy job was inadequate, as mine is no problem after 33 years. Get it right and you don't have a problem . If you have a problem, then you have done it wrong. The problem is the paint job, not the steel.

    Firstly perhaps you'd like to point out where I have called you a liar. You called me a liar directly, but I've only got to question the veracity of some of your more outlandish comments and you start flinging insults around. Please remember that personal insults are against the forum T's and C's.

    You have no idea of how much Ocean passage making and general sailing experience I have so less of the one trip wonder please. (If you want to know, I've been sailing over fifty years and have considerable ocean experience so eat your words would be a polite repost.)

    We will have to agree to differ over while decks getting hot. I freely admit that they don't get as hot as dark coloured decks but the construction material under the paint makes little or no difference in my experience. Steel or GRP, the only thing that varies is the thermal mass and how much energy is stored in the deck material from the suns rays. In fact some of the steel boats I've been on have definitely felt hotter than some the plastic ones. All down to insulation IMHO.

    On the subject of insulation, steel hulls with no insulation inside them can be very noisy. How do I know? Because we had to strip out the insulation from a steel hull because it had been sprayed on (as foam) and whilst it made the boat very pleasant and habitable, it created and exacerbated problems with corrosion. Once stripped out, the thing was like a drum.

    Your answer to any of the common problems with steel hulls outlined on here is that people got it wrong. If only they'd painted it as well as you or designed it as well as you or built it as well as you then its a perfect material.

    I'll allow others to determine whether those arguments ring true or not.
    Last edited by john_morris_uk; 14-11-17 at 22:32.
    "Donít be afraid to go out on a limb. Itís where all the fruit is.Ē Shirley Maclean

  4. #114
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    Oct 2010
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    456

    Default Re: Is wind vane steering necessary....

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    You have no idea of how much Ocean and sailing experience I have so less of the one trip wonder please. (If you want to know, I've been sailing over fifty years and have considerable ocean experience so eat your words would be a polite repost.)

    We will have to agree to differ over while decks getting hot. I freely admit that they don't get as hot as dark coloured decks but the construction material under the paint makes little or no difference in my experience. Steel or GRP, the only thing that varies is the thermal mass and how much energy is stored in the deck material from the suns rays. In fact some of the steel boats I've been on have definitely felt hotter than some the plastic ones. All down to insulation IMHO.

    On the subject of insulation, steel hulls with no insulation inside them can be very noisy. How do I know? Because we had to strip out the insulation from a steel hull because it had been sprayed on (as foam) and whilst it made the boat very pleasant and habitable, it created and exacerbated problems with corrosion. Once stripped out, the thing was like a drum.

    Your answer to any of the common problems with steel hulls outlined on here is that people got it wrong. If only they'd painted it as well as you or designed it as well as you or built it as well as you then its a perfect material.

    I'll allow others to determine whether those arguments ring true or not.
    On experience, I am talking about in steel boats.Yes ,metal boats with no insulation are extremely noisy, especially unpainted aluminium. They are also unliveable in these high latitudes, so must be insulared . The only time corrosion under foam is a problem is if the steel under it is inadequately epoxied, which is all too common, drastically shortening the life of many an other wise, good steel boat.
    It is only a problem if there is not enough epoxy under it.Not the foam or the steel ,just how you do it.
    You say that my stating that, means it is only me who gives such advise ,so it must be wrong?
    Just made a fool of yourself ,yet again.

  5. #115
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    Jul 2002
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    Home near Exeter, boat in Plymouth
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    Default Re: Is wind vane steering necessary....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    On experience, I am talking about in steel boats.Yes ,metal boats with no insulation are extremely noisy, especially unpainted aluminium. They are also unliveable in these high latitudes, so must be insulared . The only time corrosion under foam is a problem is if the steel under it is inadequately epoxied, which is all too common, drastically shortening the life of many an other wise, good steel boat.
    It is only a problem if there is not enough epoxy under it.Not the foam or the steel ,just how you do it.
    You say that my stating that, means it is only me who gives such advise, so it must be wrong?
    Just made a fool of yourself ,yet again.
    You seem to consistently ignore the fact that I've sailed in various steel boats over the last fifty years. I'm sorry that I'm not so blinkered as you about their shortcomings; it seems hard for you to understand that people might not be so besotted with steel as a construction material as you are.. They are very good in some respects and can be an absolute nightmare in others.

    Be careful about insults against other forum members, I've already pointed out once that the T's and C's don't permit personal insults on these forums. Stick to arguing your case.

    However regarding my response to your various bits of advice given with such evangelistic zeal, I'll leave others to determine whether I am making a fool of myself.
    "Donít be afraid to go out on a limb. Itís where all the fruit is.Ē Shirley Maclean

  6. #116
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    Jul 2002
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    Home near Exeter, boat in Plymouth
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    Default Re: Is wind vane steering necessary....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    What I am saying is the negatives all have causes, which are easily avoided. What you are saying is one should forget about avoiding the causes, and reject a material outright ,because one can screw up on them ,if one tries hard enough, but accept passively the negatives of plastic, ( Like the risk of sinking suddenly in the night, in mid ocean) .
    I don’t reject one particular material outright at all. I respectfully suggest if anyone is rejecting a material outright it’s you with your attitude to GRP.

    Everything is a compromise. One of the sacrifices you make much of with a GRP boat is the possibility (however remote) of collision and catastrophic failure of the watertight integrity of the hull.

    I acknowledge this (extremely slight) risk and mitigate against it in my current boat by having a liferaft that automatically floats free and inflates.

    There are many benefits to having a GRP boat with pendulum or Hydrovane wind steering. Furthermore some boats (steel or GRP) aren’t suitable for trim tab steering so even if your design (book available) were the very best thing that ever went to sea on a small sailing boat, it doesn't apply to lots of boats anyway.

    There are benefits arising from steel construction but there are also drawbacks that you are rather too ready to dismiss.

    You and I might be practical and able to weld (my welding admittedly is pretty ropy at times) but lots of people sail round the world in GRP boats perfectly happily. For some reason you seem to think they’re all fools who are a hairsbreadth away from dying. This patently isn’t true.
    Last edited by john_morris_uk; 16-11-17 at 16:15.
    "Donít be afraid to go out on a limb. Itís where all the fruit is.Ē Shirley Maclean

  7. #117
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    Oct 2010
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    456

    Default Re: Is wind vane steering necessary....

    Tell us more about this steel boat which was good for no more than a couple of circumnavigations. Did she have teak deck?( Major but common screwup)Teak trim on the outside?( Another major, but common screwup.)
    No epoxy on the inside ?(Another major, but sadly, very common screwup.)
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  8. #118
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    488

    Default Re: Is wind vane steering necessary....

    I'd like to respectfully ask the 2 of you to take your disagreement some where else than this Jester forum

    Your approach in managing discussion of this nature is completely against the Jester philosophy. I hope anyone looking at your comments realises this is not the way we go about things

  9. #119
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    Oct 2010
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    456

    Default Re: Is wind vane steering necessary....

    Yes ,the steel boat discussion would be a better place.

  10. #120
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    Dec 2003
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    Medway, Gillingham Reach
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    1,009

    Default Re: Is wind vane steering necessary....

    Well said Paul of Independence.

    May they RIP
    or Rust in Pieces as they say on Robot Wars.

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