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Thread: Why Red Diesel

  1. #1
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    Default Why Red Diesel

    Why do we have Red Diesel for leisure craft in the first place? I drive my diesel car for fun and don't get a reduction in fuel tax why would I because I chose to own a boat for fun? I understand that nobody likes things to get more expensive but what is the justification for cheap diesel for leisure boats

    We surely don't believe that people who choose to own a multi thousand pound cruiser can't afford to fuel it at the same level of taxation that I have to pay for my car fuel? Or is this not about who can afford to pay? Supporting the leisure boat industry is surely not a valid argument as boating holidays are already one of the most expensive holiday options you can take in the UK, and why is that? Take a look at the expenses that aren't covered in a typical Broads holiday and the asking price for 20 plus year old cruisers, I have trouble believing the hire boat companies aren't making enough.

    This really isn't a troll, I just don't understand why Red Diesel!

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Why Red Diesel

    the simple answer is that the duty levied on road fuel is meant to help pay for roads and infrastucture (yeah, right, just general taxation in reality). What is the duty on sea fuel meant to pay for? It certainly won't go towards infrastucture, the sea repaves itself twice a day! Just more general taxation, is the main thrust of the arguement, and if you read many of the arguements here, the marine industry in the UK will fall apart at the seams, as no one will be willing to pay the additional cost.

    One part of your arguement I don't understand is the multi thousand pound cruiser bit - what about those that own much cheaper cruisers - there are a lot of them

    <hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Why Red Diesel

    I'm suprised you didn't ignore this one Brendan. Definitely troll. Look at the facts: Proclaims not to be a troll, but new user and asking a question that has already been discussed to death on this and other forums.

    Rick

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Why Red Diesel

    Whatever the moives of the post, this is the question that a Devil's Advocate might put, especially since Road Tax is now related to the efficiency of the vehicle. Incidently, I thought it was road tax that notionally pays for road infrastructure.

    Light charges is the other one to be resisted, and I think with absolute justification, but I have been wondering if the cost of the development of Loran C is the reason why the Light Charge issue has been raised - or is that another thing entirely?

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Why Red Diesel

    You don't think it's a shortened name? Nigel Law(son)? Or maybe he's really Gordon Brown in disguise?

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Why Red Diesel

    Thanks Brendan. I am just amazed red diesel exists as a concept, everything else is taxed and it seems unusual for a a taxable leisure item to have escaped. As I said definately not a troll and though this may well have been 'talked to death' as somebody else here I think put it, there is little resoned discussion and lots of angry/annoyed rhetoric none of which serves to educate people genuinely trying to understand the debate.

    The comment about multi thousand pound cruisers was a lead in to try and understand whether this is a 'tax the rich argument' or not.

    I have a problem believing that the UK leisure boating industry is going to fall to bits because of an increase in diesel prices. Increases in petrol prices have not stopped people from driving cars! After all, what is the fuel consumption of your average dirty old middle of the road leisure marine diesel engine? Compare that with an hours motorway driving at 70 mph in a diesel car, for my Seat thats about 7 to 8 litres I guess (unless my maths is right up the chute, which is possible). How does that compare with a boat diesel????

    What any tax collected is spent on is an argumentative red herring really as motor vehicle taxation defiantely does not all get spent on road infrastructure and we end up in a messy discussion about taxation in general.

    No, Nigel Law is my real name and definately not short for Lawson

    Long live the revolution.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Why Red Diesel

    Why?
    'Cos nobody wants to duplicate the diesel tanks and pumps at the waters edge to cater for the fishing vessels (red diesel) and leisure vessels (proposed white diesel).

    The big issue is that EU wants a common level of duty on fuel across the community. As fuel duty is such a big contributor to the nations coffers, if we reduce our general levels of fuel duty to those of Euro-neighbours, we will have to 'Up' Income tax to their levels too.

    Insted we get half a job. Raise the duty on red, but don't lower it on everything else.

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Why Red Diesel


    "Why do we have Red Diesel for leisure craft in the first place? "
    I think its amazing that some folks ask why there is not a tax when they really should be asking why there is a tax.

    "I drive my diesel car for fun and don't get a reduction in fuel tax why would I because I chose to own a boat for fun?"

    Tell you waht folks hit golf balls for fun - thet take up huge areas of land and use mammoth amounts of water to keep it all green - its for fun so lets add £15 tax to each golf ball!!!

    Almost everything we do is for 'fun' past surviving which tales up a tiny proportion of resources it all because we choose to do it. There should be no guilt whatsoever about enjoying things for fun without the government taxing it!

    "I understand that nobody likes things to get more expensive but what is the justification for cheap diesel for leisure boats"

    I could pick out thousands of things that are not taxed as high as petrol - why does not high fashion get taxed as high as petrol. Why don't shoes get taxed as high as petrol ... in fact why does not everything we buy get taxed as high as petrol? its a great brain washing the job the govermenet has done on you when you have to ask for the justification of NOT taxing something.

    Why not tax our biggest CO2 problem - aircraft fuel to petrol levels and stop millions going on holiday?

    "We surely don't believe that people who choose to own a multi thousand pound cruiser can't afford to fuel it at the same level of taxation that I have to pay for my car fuel?"

    In many cases its a fact that they cannot - the marginal cost of a trip would become prohibitive. As it happens these folks have probably paid enourmous amounts of tax already in their lives ... in practice diesel at £5 plus per gallon would kill the UK cruising power boat indistry.

    Just because someone chooses to save and spend on a boat as opposed to say drinking in the pub every night does not mean they should have their hobby taxed out of existance does it?

    Further why have red diesel for commercila boats when 99% of what they carry is for fun ... there is no logical difference between a holiday cruise, a boat full of cars and dvd players and a private motor cruiser ... if there is then someone should tell me.

    "Or is this not about who can afford to pay? "
    No ita about EU legislation that is a pretence about something to with conformity of fuel prices across the EU. On this basis the question should be why we do not half the price of petrol overnight.

    "Supporting the leisure boat industry is surely not a valid argument as boating holidays are already one of the most expensive holiday options you can take in the UK, and why is that? Take a look at the expenses that aren't covered in a typical Broads holiday and the asking price for 20 plus year old cruisers, I have trouble believing the hire boat companies aren't making enough."

    What do you mean by that, I cannot make sense of the points?





    <hr width=100% size=1>Paul
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    My Multihull Forum

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Why Red Diesel

    "I think its amazing that some folks ask why there is not a tax when they really should be asking why there is a tax."
    We know why there is a tax. Tax is necessary to raise income for government spending.

    "Tell you waht folks hit golf balls for fun - thet take up huge areas of land and use mammoth amounts of water to keep it all green - its for fun so lets add £15 tax to each golf ball!!!"
    As near as possible I was trying to compare like with like, two means of personally owned transport for pleasure that use the same type of fuel. Not sure where golf comes in.

    Where did the guilt over having fun thing come from? I certainly have no guilt about having fun and it not being taxed.

    "its a great brain washing the job the govermenet has done on you when you have to ask for the justification of NOT taxing something."
    It's not brainwashing when you ask questions trying to understand why something is one way rather than another. More generally an intelligent act.

    "Why not tax our biggest CO2 problem - aircraft fuel to petrol levels and stop millions going on holiday?"
    A good question though taxing aircraft fuel would not stop millions going on holiday, it would just make it either more expensive or cut into the profits of the holiday companies.

    "In many cases its a fact that they cannot - the marginal cost of a trip would become prohibitive. As it happens these folks have probably paid enourmous amounts of tax already in their lives ... in practice diesel at £5 plus per gallon would kill the UK cruising power boat indistry."
    Sorry Paul but I still do not believe that somebody who can afford a multithousand pound boat can't afford to fuel it. Every car owner knows that petrol tax will go up inexorably with succesive budgets. However, there has been no massive reduction in car ownership because of petrol taxation.

    "Further why have red diesel for commercila boats when 99% of what they carry is for fun ... there is no logical difference between a holiday cruise, a boat full of cars and dvd players and a private motor cruiser ... if there is then someone should tell me."
    There is plenty of 'logical difference'. A commerical ship carries cargo on which tax will generally be paid at point of import and or point of sale. That's the stuff that helps drive a countries economy. On the other hand one might argue that the pleasure boat that makes cross channel trips to buy goods with little or no tax and then bring them back to the uk to sell in the pub or car boot sale and pays no tax on his fuel either does worse than contribute nothing to the general good. Of course I wouldn't argue that but......now you have an idea of the difference between a commercial trading vessel that continually generates revenue and a pleasure boat that doesn't.

    My comments on the leisure boat industry are suggesting that it makes a good living thank you very much and there is scope to reduce pricing to offset any rise in diesel tax that affects the industry. It would be intersting to know how many hours your average holiday maker runs an engine and just how much of a monetary difference a tax on disel would make to an average holiday.

    There, continually polite answers with no recourse to name calling etc. We can be polite in debate cant we






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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Why Red Diesel

    "We know why there is a tax. Tax is necessary to raise income for government spending."
    No .. this is why there is tax - and not why there is this proposed tax. If what you say was true then we do not have to worry because putting red up to petrol prices will raise LESS tax not more.

    "Where did the guilt over having fun thing come from? I certainly have no guilt about having fun and it not being taxed."
    Great then there can be no classification based on leisure or essential aspects of why red should be taxed.

    I strongly disagree with you. I claim your points are without any foundationm in fact and your understanding of how the economy works is flawed and simplistic.
    However, I do believe you are sincere and none that follows is personal. Its just that I simply hab=ve to deal with your points.

    " good question though taxing aircraft fuel would not stop millions going on holiday, it would just make it either more expensive or cut into the profits of the holiday companies."

    No, an increase to petrol prices would incur a major price hike and so reduce demand ... its that simple. It would stop many people flying.

    "Sorry Paul but I still do not believe that somebody who can afford a multithousand pound boat can't afford to fuel it. Every car owner knows that petrol tax will go up inexorably with succesive budgets. However, there has been no massive reduction in car ownership because of petrol taxation."

    I know folks who struggle to keep their boats going and 3 to 4 times hike in the market price of fuel will stop them dead. I know ricj people who would still noy go on a 3 hour trteutn trip if the cost is £1200 instead of £300 so you are wrong BUT why should anyone afford it ... why raise the tax at all?

    As regards cars, after the first fuel shortage in the USA, the standard USA car almost dissappeared overnight. If car ful was to go up three times, so would many motorists.

    "There is plenty of 'logical difference'. A commerical ship carries cargo on which tax will generally be paid at point of import and or point of sale. That's the stuff that helps drive a countries economy. On the other hand one might argue that the pleasure boat that makes cross channel trips to buy goods with little or no tax and then bring them back to the uk to sell in the pub or car boot sale and pays no tax on his fuel either does worse than contribute nothing to the general good. Of course I wouldn't argue that but......now you have an idea of the difference between a commercial trading vessel that continually generates revenue and a pleasure boat that doesn't."

    How wrong can you be!!! There is no difference, I spend a lot of money every year on my boat and associated things and all of that generates income, tax etc. Even buying the boat in the first place generates a very large amount of tax .... if it were not for the folks buying the DVD players there would be no commercial boats bringing them .... you seem to define the only worthwhile things as things that generate tax for central government and even that is wrong.
    Folks going on pleasure cruises generate income for all sorts of people... folks crossing the channel create jobs, tax and wealth ... any activity does. You simplistic understanding of this is so flawed that it beggars belief .... nor do I accept that taxation is for the general good.

    "My comments on the leisure boat industry are suggesting that it makes a good living thank you very much and there is scope to reduce pricing to offset any rise in diesel tax that affects the industry. "

    At no point have you stated why there should be a tax in the first place!
    Fairline returns on their capital are so poor that I would frankly not put up with it in my business .... where on earth do you get that logic on on it all from except some form of jealousy? Its an attitude of "they are rich so lets tax them, they can afford it"

    "It would be intersting to know how many hours your average holiday maker runs an engine and just how much of a monetary difference a tax on disel would make to an average holiday."

    One freight ship can burn 220 tonnes of fuel per day. If ocean liners had to pay petrol prices the industry would collpase overnight - so to would holiday charter flights. Even a small rise in aircraft fule price produces a hefty surcharge for holiday makers!

    Please explain why this tax should be placed in the first place ... you have no rational whasover behind your point other than the simplistic thing about tax being good for all and they can afford it so tax it sort of logic.

    You state there is nothing wrong with fun but actuall differentiate between ferries carrying people and cargo ships carrying DVD players for thois people on the gounds that one generates more tax than the other!!! Even that is not right as a statement.

    IF a hike in red diesel to the same as petrol could be shown to producr a drop in tax yield ... would you still support the hike?

    Do you support the hike for the stated reason compatability with Europe?

    I really beleive you are sincere, I respect you for that but I cannot help but debate in the strongest terms your points because they do defy logic.






    <hr width=100% size=1>Paul
    Paul
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    My Multihull Forum

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