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  1. #191
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    Nov 2007
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    29,098

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    Yes , the 99% of boat owners who leave their boats in marinas over 90% of the time , are well served by plastic boats, which are far superior to steel; for that particular use .
    That is so untrue. The vast majority of boats including those used by long distance cruisers are made of GRP.

    A small minority, mainly those who wander into the more hazardous parts of the world have a preference for steel.

    Your unwillingness to recognise this leads you to bombard forums with untrue negative comments about the suitability of GRP for this use, despite the many years of hands on experience by people pointing this out to you.

    Sound familiar?

    Suggest you look in the mirror to see yourself doing exactly what you accuse others of doing.

    Your advocacy of steel seems to be qualified by saying boats must be built your way using your designs and construction methods. However the majority of steel boats are not built that way, so invalidating your claims of superiority just because they use steel.

    Constant repetition of the same claims does not make them true.

  2. #192
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    273

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    Imagine yourself looking at rusted through plating on your steel boat, realising that the corrosion was so extensive that there was nothing to weld onto within easy reach, and wishing you’d bought a GRP boat that didn’t rust.
    (Quote)
    My 33 year old boat has no serious corrosion, and 95% of the epoxy is as good as the day I put it on. something any steel boat owner can accomplish , if they get their advice from someone with similar success, instead of from those who have no such experience.

    Quote
    In the extremely unlikely event of me ending up treading water because of some catastrophic failure of the hull of my GRP boat, it will be only for the few seconds my life raft takes to be launched automatically by the Hamar release and inflate itself.
    Quote
    Being in a life raft in the S Pacific can still put you thousands of miles from the nearest human.Check it on your globe ,nearly half the planet. The Atlantic is a puddle by comparison.
    Being in slightly dented steel boat, still sailing , seems much wiser. ( better seamanship)

    Whereas I can confidently say EVERY steel boat ever built suffers from corrosion to a greater or lesser extent. It has to be continuously monitored and dealt with.
    Quote
    Mine has little monitoring,nothing to monitor ,and a couple of hours maintenance a year is far less than the brightwork on my first boat(and far more useful and functional
    Quote

    Wisdom is all about assessing the risk and ensuring it’s managed appropriately.
    Quote
    Wisdom is leaving as little as possible to the odds

    Steel is lovely and strong but it’s not perfect and throw away emotive comments don’t help your cause.
    Stating the facts is helpful to those who have the wisdom to see them

  3. #193
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Home near Exeter, boat in Plymouth
    Posts
    19,113

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    Stating the facts is helpful to those who have the wisdom to see them
    You only acknowledge things as ‘facts’ if they agree with your rather distorted view of the world and boats suitable for long term cruising. Instead of making you look wise, I suggest your one dimensional viewpoint as epitomised in your answers to my latest post is making you look foolish.

    Making emotional appeals about hypothetical situations in mid Pacific isn’t a compelling case. When you stand back for a moment, you realise how silly the argument is. Your claims about how remarkably corrosion and maintenance free your boat is doesn’t square with my experience of steel boats nor others I’ve sailed with or heard of. (Isn’t it inconvenient to you that I’ve sailed lengthy passages on steel boats over the years, but it still hasn’t left me convinced they’re the most wonderful thing ever.)
    "Donít be afraid to go out on a limb. Itís where all the fruit is.Ē Shirley Maclean

  4. #194
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    273

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    You only acknowledge things as ‘facts’ if they agree with your rather distorted view of the world and boats suitable for long term cruising. Instead of making you look wise, I suggest your one dimensional viewpoint as epitomised in your answers to my latest post is making you look foolish.

    Making emotional appeals about hypothetical situations in mid Pacific isn’t a compelling case. When you stand back for a moment, you realise how silly the argument is. Your claims about how remarkably corrosion and maintenance free your boat is doesn’t square with my experience of steel boats nor others I’ve sailed with or heard of. (Isn’t it inconvenient to you that I’ve sailed lengthy passages on steel boats over the years, but it still hasn’t left me convinced they’re the most wonderful thing ever.)
    Tell the one surviving member of the Sleavin family that what she experienced was "hypothetical" or tell that to the the guy who had his boat sink under him after hitting a whale ,or the many others who had their boat sink under them ,or the survivors who had friends and family members lost at sea. Tell them that one is better off in mid ocean in a life raft, than in a slightly dented steel boat.
    Many steel boat owners don't feel the need to have a life raft, as the chance of holing is extremely minimal. I never have.
    It is you who have plastic myopia ,in your claim that a plastic boat is ones only reasonable option.
    Yes, steel is more sensitive to screwups ,which are needlessly, far to common.
    ( largely, thanks to advice from those who have not figured it out yet).
    That is the fault of the screwups, not the material.The fact that you only have experience with screwups, is not the fault of steel, as a building material.
    I recently saw a steel boat which was solid rust from 6 inches above the waterline ,a boat which was much younger than mine. I have zero rust there.
    The difference? Much much thicker epoxy, on super clean steel.
    If you are having rust problems,then you are doing something wrong ,period!
    Figure it out, and get it right, and you will have few problems.
    Not being dead is worth far more than all the steel boat maintenance I have done over the last 4 decades ( Couple of hours a year ,average) as is the huge increase in peace of mind, while underway.
    Many plastic boats rarely leave the marina, because it simply is not worth the stress of knowing you cant afford to bump things hard.
    Last edited by Brent Swain; 08-12-17 at 01:24.

  5. #195
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Daytona Beach, Florida
    Posts
    14,924

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    Tell the one surviving member of the Sleavin family that what she experienced was "hypothetical" or tell that to the the guy who had his boat sink under him after hitting a whale ,or the many others who had their boat sink under them ,or the survivors who had friends and family members lost at sea. Tell them that one is better off in mid ocean in a life raft, than in a slightly dented steel boat.
    Many steel boat owners don't feel the need to have a life raft, as the chance of holing is extremely minimal. I never have.
    It is you who have plastic myopia ,in your claim that a plastic boat is ones only reasonable option.
    Yes, steel is more sensitive to screwups ,which are needlessly, far to common.
    ( largely, thanks to advice from those who have not figured it out yet).
    That is the fault of the screwups, not the material.The fact that you only have experience with screwups, is not the fault of steel, as a building material.
    I recently saw a steel boat which was solid rust from 6 inches above the waterline ,a boat which was much younger than mine. I have zero rust there.
    The difference? Much much thicker epoxy, on super clean steel.
    If you are having rust problems,then you are doing something wrong ,period!
    Figure it out, and get it right, and you will have few problems.
    Not being dead is worth far more than all the steel boat maintenance I have done over the last 4 decades ( Couple of hours a year ,average) as is the huge increase in peace of mind, while underway.
    Many plastic boats rarely leave the marina, because it simply is not worth the stress of knowing you cant afford to bump things hard.
    Such blatant (advertising?) bias is not worth reading Even if some of it has merit you have killed your case stone dead by your non stop preaching. When you listen to nobody why should anybody listen to you? When looking for another live aboard boat I had up to now excluded no materials, no designer no builder, I kept an open mind, but that has now changed and steel is completely off the list, well done and thanks for narrowing my list .
    Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and without any warranty!

  6. #196
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Home near Exeter, boat in Plymouth
    Posts
    19,113

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    The only interesting thing left in this thread is my amusement at Brents utter inability to either read my posts or understand them.

    Many steel boat owners don't feel the need to have a life raft, as the chance of holing is extremely minimal. I never have.
    It is you who have plastic myopia ,in your claim that a plastic boat is ones only reasonable option.
    First of all, I've never said that plastic is the only reasonable option. I can see the value of steel construction, but I can also see its limitations. I can also see the value of GRP construction, but can also see its limitations. Another way of expressing Robins point of view is to say that people who are so one track minded that they lose sight of all other peoples point of view and continue to trot out the same old arguments, have lost their argument a long time ago.

    Secondly, going to sea on Ocean passages without a life-raft is not something I would be suggesting or recommending or contemplating for one millisecond. First of all it would have been illegal on some of the boats I have been sailing as they were commercially coded and inspected. Even without the legal necessity, you've no idea when a flange or weld is 'possibly' going to give way. Plenty of steel boats have looked really smart and good, but under the (multi layers) of epoxy, there's a failure about to happen when they hit that semi-submerged container and being without a life-raft on an ocean crossing is not something I'd contemplate. Its foolhardiness to the point of stupidity in my humble opinion.

    Trotting out the occasions when GRP boats have sunk is not a compelling argument but Brent keeps trying. Give it up Brent. People know better because there are thousands of boats sailing round the world made of GRP that don't sink in the way you describe. I freely acknowledge the risk of sinking, but I manage the risk on my current boat in ways already described. For high latitude sailing, in remote places, a well found steel boat has a lot going for it. Its not without its potential problems, but some people don't seem to want to admit that!

    What I am not prepared to do is for someone who profits from the sale of his books and work on steel boats to continue to post blatant misinformation and allow it unchallenged. If Brent produces a BALANCED argument, perhaps he will be taken seriously? On his current track record I'm not holding my breath.
    Last edited by john_morris_uk; 08-12-17 at 22:18. Reason: Typo
    "Donít be afraid to go out on a limb. Itís where all the fruit is.Ē Shirley Maclean

  7. #197
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Eastern Med ish
    Posts
    2,765

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    Stating the facts is helpful to those who have the wisdom to see them
    You don't post on Climate change as "Delfin" by any chance?
    never confuse education with intelligence
    Sailing the Aegean

  8. #198
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Oxfordshire, Gosport and Wellington New Zealand.
    Posts
    5,820

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Boats built from steel are very well suited for some conditions, and for some among us who have a morbid fear of hitting a pointy rock or being attacked by a whale.

    I know this happens-the poor fellow who lost his lovely HR off Biscay was in my house recently collecting a used genny I sold on the "For Sale" Forum. A collision with a whale loosened the keel enough to have leakage too severe for the pumps to cope.

    Another, older model of HR with an encapsulated keel, perhaps a different outcome.

    I would bet that more steel boats are being fixed up wordwide percentage wise than boats in other materials. My own steel boat requires serious work around the badly designed windows. I must make the decision to do the job properly or fake it up for sale-its a cheapy so not worth spending loads of time and money.

    My reasons for believing the above are simple.

    Seawater, atmosphere and steel equals rust!

    Agreed, it CAN be easy to fix. It can also be a bloody nightmare!

    You see, we are not all perfectionists who can build a steel boat that only needs two hours maintainence each year, unlike a certain superhero on this subject...........................................

  9. #199
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,630

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    Many steel boat owners don't feel the need to have a life raft, as the chance of holing is extremely minimal. I never have.
    I believe the White Star Line used to have a similar philosophy.

  10. #200
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    273

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin View Post
    Such blatant (advertising?) bias is not worth reading Even if some of it has merit you have killed your case stone dead by your non stop preaching. When you listen to nobody why should anybody listen to you? When looking for another live aboard boat I had up to now excluded no materials, no designer no builder, I kept an open mind, but that has now changed and steel is completely off the list, well done and thanks for narrowing my list .
    Your suggestion that listing the advantages of steel is "advertising"suggests that I am the only one on the planet designing and building in steel. Is that why you equally "Advertise "plastic boats?
    Your suggestion that, when someone who has 9 Pacific crossings in his wake ,most of it in steel, is still enthusiastic about the material, after 4 decades , is reason to reject it, is mind boggling, anti logic, as is your suggestion that one would be better off going by the advice of those with no such steel boat experience.
    There are plenty of people who are just as enthusiastic about plastic ,wood , aluminium ,etc. Do you consider their enthusiasm for the material, reason to reject it?
    That really doesn't leave you many options, does it?
    If I believed other building methods, designs, and materials were better, I would use them, as would you.
    I don't see you declaring that what you believe in is wrong, as you suggest I should.

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