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  1. #341
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    Jul 2003
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    Solent
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    439

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    And here I thought personal insults were not allowed here. So much for that misconception!
    Definition :
    The proper way.. "What works , What did work"
    The wrong way. "What doesn't work. What hasn't worked."
    What I did worked, and the fire went out quickly. Must have been the proper way. Fighting the fire with hatches open has been a miserable failure, for any one I know who has tried that . I guess that makes it the wrong way, unless you consider a boat gutted by fire a greater success than one with minimal damage. I don't think many would agree with that definition of "success."
    Suggesting that a submarine has the same amount of air inside to support combustion, as a31 ft sloop, is abysmally naive.
    Brent,

    My post was a question to Solent Clown about the USS Miami incident certainly not a personal insult and not addreesed to you.

  2. #342
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    Jul 2002
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    Home near Exeter, boat in Plymouth
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    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    I'm sure that in the time of Columbus, some were saying that Columbus should not be allowed to tell people that the world was round . Could be dangerous. Someone might believe him, and end up sailing off the edge .
    You are,historically in good company.
    Fortunately most people can tell the difference between fatuous remarks about Columbus and people who go out on a limb to set new standards and possibilities and downright dangerous advice like, "You don't need a life-raft on a steel boat as it won't sink", and "Fires on steel boats are not a problem as they put themselves out because its easy to close all sources of air by just closing the hatches etc".

    (Some fires on some boats might put themselves out by closing the hatches and all ventilation, but its very dangerous to suggest that all fires will go out easily this way and that steel is inherently safe because of this alleged 'fact'.)

    When you gain some perspective and are able to have a balanced point of view and not start ranting and raving whenever your convictions are challenged, people might take you more seriously. I'm not holding my breath though.
    "Donít be afraid to go out on a limb. Itís where all the fruit is.Ē Shirley Maclean

  3. #343
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Loch Snizort, Isle of Skye
    Posts
    4,256

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    Because plastic builders get the benefits of over a half century of free ( to them) promotion of plastic, and the added support of mobs of trolls, who attack any suggestion of ANY advantage of steel ( to defend the credibility of their own plastic choices). They also get the benefits of steel boaters insisting their outdated, slow, tedious, distorted, labour intensive, 1950's building methods, are the only option for steel boat building ( again, to defend their own choices) attacking anyone who suggests alternative ways of building a metal boat.
    META of France has done OK building metal boats, over many decades, using origami methods in their "Strongall" designs, saving huge amounts in labour costs.
    As Harry Trueman said:
    "An expert is someone who opposes change, because if change is accepted, then he stops being an expert."
    When someone who has done things one way ,and is considered an "expert" , sees someone come along with something new, which makes all he has learned redundant, he naturally attacks it, to defend his position as an "Expert."
    Plastic Bavarias are definitely better than steel, for what 95% of them are used for, sitting in a marina ,rarely going out, while their owners go to work to pay for them.
    Thank you for finally answering my question.
    I think you may be overstating the advantages that GRP has from decades of marketplace acceptance. I would assert that many buyers are actually quite open minded (or in some cases ignorant, being new to boats) about hull material. Hence aluminium boats are enjoying an increase in popularity.

    You then assert that the mass market builder are resistant to change. I'm not so sure about that. The way that Bavaria construct their boats is astonishingly efficient, and reflects years of advancement over the traditional hand crafted approach. Designs have changed radically to take advantage of new materials; many boats now incorporate exotic composites and stiffening frames.

    Your final paragraph is more plausible. Sorry to break it to you but most people have to go to work instead of sailing, so most boats don't get used 95% of the time. So for most people, GRP makes sense. I don't think owning a steel boat magically changes any of this, you still need to go to work. So, surely, GRP is the solution for most people?
    Deb 33- Wayfarer- Wanderer

  4. #344
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    347

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    [QUOTE=john_morris_uk;6301102]Fortunately most people can tell the difference between fatuous remarks about Columbus and people who go out on a limb to set new standards and possibilities and downright dangerous advice like, "You don't need a life-raft on a steel boat as it won't sink", and "Fires on steel boats are not a problem as they put themselves out because its easy to close all sources of air by just closing the hatches etc".

    (Some fires on some boats might put themselves out by closing the hatches and all ventilation, but its very dangerous to suggest that all fires will go out easily this way and that steel is inherently safe because of this alleged 'fact'.)
    (Quote)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It is more than an "Alleged "fact that fires wont burn without oxygen. It is a FACT , period!
    Had I insisted on a life raft and all the other "must have" equipment that I was called "irresponsible" for going without ( by the con artists selling it) ,I would have taken decades longer to get out cruising, like those who buy that sales pitch. Instead, I set sail for the South Pacific at the ripe old age of 23, and semi retired for 11 months a year, full time cruising in my mid 20's.
    Very few of the cruisers I met had life rafts, and most would never have made it off the tread mill, if they had bought such sales pitches. Choosing a hull which wont be holed is much wiser than going in a plastic hull which could easily be holed , and depending on a rubber ducky.

    Definition:
    Balanced point of view:
    "Just follow the sheeple, and don't seek a better way of doing anything. Just do what everyone else does, and dont ever question groupthink.".

    Reducing the relevance of money in ones life , by living reasourcefully, means having to work far less, and having far more play time. No, if you figure that out, you don't have to work as much. ( =more cruising time ).
    Last edited by Brent Swain; 08-01-18 at 01:49.

  5. #345
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    Jul 2002
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    Home near Exeter, boat in Plymouth
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    19,255

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    [QUOTE=Brent Swain;6301692]
    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    Fortunately most people can tell the difference between fatuous remarks about Columbus and people who go out on a limb to set new standards and possibilities and downright dangerous advice like, "You don't need a life-raft on a steel boat as it won't sink", and "Fires on steel boats are not a problem as they put themselves out because its easy to close all sources of air by just closing the hatches etc".

    (Some fires on some boats might put themselves out by closing the hatches and all ventilation, but its very dangerous to suggest that all fires will go out easily this way and that steel is inherently safe because of this alleged 'fact'.)
    (Quote)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It is more than an "Alleged "fact that fires wont burn without oxygen. It is a FACT , period!
    Had I insisted on a life raft and all the other "must have" equipment that I was called "irresponsible" for going without ( by the con artists selling it) ,I would have taken decades longer to get out cruising, like those who buy that sales pitch. Instead, I set sail for the South Pacific at the ripe old age of 23, and semi retired for 11 months a year, full time cruising in my mid 20's.
    Very few of the cruisers I met had life rafts, and most would never have made it off the tread mill, if they had bought such sales pitches. Choosing a hull which wont be holed is much wiser than going in a plastic hull which could easily be holed , and depending on a rubber ducky.

    Definition:
    Balanced point of view:
    "Just follow the sheeple, and don't seek a better way of doing anything. Just do what everyone else does, and dont ever question groupthink.".

    Reducing the relevance of money in ones life , by living reasourcefully, means having to work far less, and having far more play time. No, if you figure that out, you don't have to work as much. ( =more cruising time ).
    It appears that I'm not the only one who thinks that your advice is sometimes misleading and dangerous.

    Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    As I suggested in the wooden mast discussion, I soaked a bit of fir in a very salty brine for a week, dried it out then glued it together with epoxy. The salt had zero effect on the strength of the glue line, that I could detect. Commercially available wood preservatives leave an oily surface, which no glue can stick to.
    That quote summarizes your approach. Based on a highly unscientific one off test (no empirical data), and what fir, grown where, how old, salt solution for how long, penetration through material, breaking strength, glue, drying time, etc.

    Based on this myth You'll probably start arguing that this is the only safe way to build wooden masts - I sincerely believe You're dangerous to your clients, as you have demonstrated here that you have NO (Nil, zero) understanding of material strength but subscribe to the "I hit it with a hammer so it must be strong" theory.
    "The salt had zero effect on the strength of the glue line, that I could detect.", funny.

    Sorry that I'm bashing you too, but this is plain stupid..

    /Joms
    from Sailnet: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailbo...m-boat-86.html

    `I'm always delighted that you reply, as its becoming more and more obvious how dangerous some of your suggesting really are.
    "Donít be afraid to go out on a limb. Itís where all the fruit is.Ē Shirley Maclean

  6. #346
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,914

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    It appears that I'm not the only one who thinks that your advice is sometimes misleading and dangerous.

    from Sailnet: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailbo...m-boat-86.html

    `I'm always delighted that you reply, as its becoming more and more obvious how dangerous some of your suggesting really are.[/QUOTE]

    You could add considerably to that list. This forum may be the only one left in the English-speaking world where Brent has some credibility.

  7. #347
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by lpdsn View Post
    It appears that I'm not the only one who thinks that your advice is sometimes misleading and dangerous.

    from Sailnet: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailbo...m-boat-86.html

    `I'm always delighted that you reply, as its becoming more and more obvious how dangerous some of your suggesting really are.
    You could add considerably to that list. This forum may be the only one left in the English-speaking world where Brent has some credibility.[/QUOTE]

    Your suggestion being that it is dangerous to go to sea in a design which has over 40 years of trouble free cruising, including 4 circumnavigations, Cape Horn to the Aleutians, a single season passage thru the NW passage, 16 days of pounding in big surf on the west coast of Baja, being pulled off thru big surf, pounding for a quarter mile in up to12 ft surf, pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral in big surf, both ways ,several hull speed collisions with rocks and steel barges, all with no serious structural damage?
    Instead, you suggest it is "safer" to go with designers who's keels fall off, and who's boats suffer frequent structural damage, and leak like sieves, in much milder conditions, designers with no offshore cruising , nor building, nor live aboard ,nor long term maintenance experience?
    Seems the only "Dangerous" advice given here is your own,Trump style " false news"
    The only lack of credibility here is that of my critics.
    Search
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats
    You will find a site where info is freely exchanged, by people with a lot of experience in the subject at hand, without guys like Smackdaddy, alias whoever, being allowed to sabotage the exchange of info, by to turning it into a trolls picnic. We stick to boat subjects, and altho several of Smackdaddy's troll friends have tried to wreck it, we saw them coming, and saved the site.

    Or search
    Silas Crosby
    or Tagish.
    Last edited by Brent Swain; 13-01-18 at 01:01.

  8. #348
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    347

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by lpdsn View Post
    It appears that I'm not the only one who thinks that your advice is sometimes misleading and dangerous.

    from Sailnet: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailbo...m-boat-86.html

    `I'm always delighted that you reply, as its becoming more and more obvious how dangerous some of your suggesting really are.
    You could add considerably to that list. This forum may be the only one left in the English-speaking world where Brent has some credibility.[/QUOTE]

    Those quotes from Smackdaddy, are from a guy with only lake sailing and ditch sailing experience, who had such 'Expertise" that he lost his last boat by tying her bow on to a concrete float, with no spring lines. A gale pushed her forward, demolishing the bow, sinking her.
    Many of his "Quotes" of me are entirely made up, his words, not mine.
    This guy has been stalking me across the internet for years, including personal threats in his postings.
    I was kinda hoping that that kind of behavior was not allowed on this site. His quoting of his own made up quotes, which he falsely attributes to me, is consistent with his long track record of personal insults .
    I was hoping we could simply discuss and pass on info about boats here, without Smackdaddy sabotaging the entire site, making it useless for the exchange of experience based info, as he has done on so many other sites.
    So much for that idea!
    If he remains, the discussion will be sabotaged to uselessness , with only those with no experience in the subject ,allowed to participate.
    Last edited by Brent Swain; 13-01-18 at 00:45.

  9. #349
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    Jul 2002
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    Home near Exeter, boat in Plymouth
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    19,255

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    You could add considerably to that list. This forum may be the only one left in the English-speaking world where Brent has some credibility.
    Those quotes from Smackdaddy, are from a guy with only lake sailing and ditch sailing experience, who had such 'Expertise" that he lost his last boat by tying her bow on to a concrete float, with no spring lines. A gale pushed her forward, demolishing the bow, sinking her.
    Many of his "Quotes" of me are entirely made up, his words, not mine.
    This guy has been stalking me across the internet for years, including personal threats in his postings.
    I was kinda hoping that that kind of behavior was not allowed on this site. His quoting of his own made up quotes, which he falsely attributes to me, is consistent with his long track record of personal insults .
    I was hoping we could simply discuss and pass on info about boats here, without Smackdaddy sabotaging the entire site, making it useless for the exchange of experience based info, as he has done on so many other sites.
    So much for that idea!
    If he remains, the discussion will be sabotaged to uselessness , with only those with no experience in the subject ,allowed to participate.
    Whatever the truth behind those quotes (and you need to think carefully about how your remarks come across to the neutral observer) you seriously underestimate the amount of live aboard and cruising experience many of the contributors to this web site have. To my certain knowledge, some of the GRP boat builders in Europe whose boats you often see round the world (Halberg Rassey, Malo, Sweden Yachts etc) have designers and builders who may have sailed more miles than you claim to have sailed, so your rants about plastic boats fall on deaf ears to those in the know.

    More specifically, you may have got away with putting out a fire by shutting the hatches, and you may know of one of two other examples, but that’s not a persuasive argument in favour of it as a ‘go to, failsafe method’. Furthermore, you can proclaim the virtues of setting off as a 23 year old ocean cruising bum and surviving without a liferaft, but that’s not a good argument against life rafts per se.

    Balance is not following the majority as you so pejoratively put it, but being able to stand back and see the bigger picture.

    Some of your advice and experience is valuable but sadly some of it is downright dangerous, and the real sadness is that you can’t see the difference between the two sorts.
    Last edited by john_morris_uk; 13-01-18 at 01:24.
    "Donít be afraid to go out on a limb. Itís where all the fruit is.Ē Shirley Maclean

  10. #350
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    Oct 2010
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    347

    Default Re: Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

    The alternative is believing fire can burn without oxygen!
    Or that , the strategy which has resulted in boats being gutted by fire, is better than one which put the fires out quickly!
    If you have a lot of money and are going in a plastic boat , then buy a liferaft.
    If you don't have a lot of money, then don't let lack of one stop you from living the cruising dream . You re still safer at sea than living in and dodging traffic in suburbia.
    Cruising in a steel boat without a life raft is many times safer than in a plastic boat with one.
    Many ,who abandoned their boats in the 79 Fastnet, to climb into a liferaft were lost ,while the boats were found empty and floating later. Had they not had a life raft to climb into, they would have probably survived.

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