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  1. #121
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    2,923

    Default Re: Course to steer for crossing the channel

    Quote Originally Posted by Angele View Post
    Not in the middle of the English Channel you can't.
    True enough, Angele! On that basis, Sybarite said it all in an earlier post: just head South.

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    4,495

    Default Re: Course to steer for crossing the channel

    Quote Originally Posted by BelleSerene View Post
    True enough, Angele! On that basis, Sybarite said it all in an earlier post: just head South.
    Unless you're doing 10kts+ ?

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    239

    Default Re: Course to steer for crossing the channel

    Quote Originally Posted by Tranona View Post
    Fine. But we are not navigating merchant ships.

    Nobody is questioning how merchant and naval ships navigate - just pointing out that their methods are inappropriate for small, slow, wind propelled yachts.

    Is it not unreasonable to recognise this?
    Not unreasonable at all. Good points.

    I agree that in certain circumstances a “s curve” approach is appropriate. Those circumstances include open water with no hazards and full tidal cycles ( 12 hours, 24 hours) ect. A Solent to Cherbourg passage would be a good example of where such an approach is ideal.

    Not as appropriate for different circumstances with hazards and/or incomplete tide windows. The reason that the Navy’s use a “plot a course and stick to it” approach is to cut out the possibilities of error’s given the many different circumstances they will encounter worldwide.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    2,923

    Default Re: Course to steer for crossing the channel

    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    Unless you're doing 10kts+ ?
    Yes, and a modern Navy navigator, apparently: then you’d head a bit, say, W of South because by experimenting at the helm that turns out to be what keeps you on a Southerly track over the sea bed, and when you find that stops working because that vexatious tide thing just changed, head a bit E of South to stay over that reassuring line on the map, then turn a bit again to plug the local current which just took you by surprise... and you’ll get there! QED! The value of ‘discipline’!

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Burnham on Crouch
    Posts
    4,308

    Default Re: Course to steer for crossing the channel

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch01527 View Post
    Not unreasonable at all. Good points.

    I agree that in certain circumstances a “s curve” approach is appropriate. Those circumstances include open water with no hazards and full tidal cycles ( 12 hours, 24 hours) ect. A Solent to Cherbourg passage would be a good example of where such an approach is ideal.

    Not as appropriate for different circumstances with hazards and/or incomplete tide windows. The reason that the Navy’s use a “plot a course and stick to it” approach is to cut out the possibilities of error’s given the many different circumstances they will encounter worldwide.
    Thank you .... a very agreeable answer.

    And, of course, this thread is indeed about a cross Channel passage, in our own boats, where we can make (hopefully) informed, intelligent decisions.

    I haven't spotted anyone on here advocating that it can always be used.
    Last edited by NealB; 16-02-18 at 11:14.

  6. #126
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    30,988

    Default Re: Course to steer for crossing the channel

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch01527 View Post
    Not unreasonable at all. Good points.

    I agree that in certain circumstances a “s curve” approach is appropriate. Those circumstances include open water with no hazards and full tidal cycles ( 12 hours, 24 hours) ect. A Solent to Cherbourg passage would be a good example of where such an approach is ideal.

    Not as appropriate for different circumstances with hazards and/or incomplete tide windows. The reason that the Navy’s use a “plot a course and stick to it” approach is to cut out the possibilities of error’s given the many different circumstances they will encounter worldwide.
    That is the whole point of the way small boat navigation is taught - it is about understanding the effects of the wind and tide on your boat and choosing they bet way of using them to your advantage. Hazards are an issue to be dealt with at the planning stage so you adopt strategies to avoid them. This often means breaking the passage down into discrete legs and using waypoints. This is one situation where chart plotters are a boon as they enable you to plan legs quickly. However they are an aid and not to be followed blindly! Being aware of your position accurately helps you use your eyes to keep you aware of possible dangers.

    It is all this that makes our sailing interesting and somewhat perversely even more interesting if you do it in a slower unhandy boat such as was common 30 or 40 years ago.

  7. #127
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Fareham
    Posts
    6,317

    Default Re: Course to steer for crossing the channel

    Quote Originally Posted by East Cardinal View Post
    No need for that.
    It may be good but I don’t think the RYA day skipper is equivalent to RN ( FNO or PWO(N) ).
    https://www.google.com.sg/amp/s/amp....ul/08/military

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    2,923

    Default Re: Course to steer for crossing the channel

    Indeed. And try to read this one without wincing and wondering how any of the officers on duty could be excused:


    https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._si_report.pdf


    And only yesterday:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...rine-zk79p03vn


    Just to get our heads around this one: the examiner, a Commander, is examining two candidates for submarine command. There’s a large ship nearby, which he ‘wrongly assumed’ his students had seen. He didn’t use the other periscope (or any other means) to check the hazard. When the students manoeuvre to avoid a yacht, he still doesn’t check - at all - that they’re not turning towards the hazard. Which is a exactly what they did.


    The yachting equivalent of that is your YM instructor or examiner spotting a tanker in the nearby shipping lane, waiting for you to manoeuvre around some obstacle - and not even checking you’re not closing on the ship. Not over his shoulder, not on an instrument, not by asking what the candidate thinks the hazards are, nothing. Such a level of recklessness or disregard is unthinkable. You couldn’t be a competent skipper and not seek to check that your student was avoiding the hazard. Or was even aware of its existence.


    What was that in this thread about ‘discipline’ determining how RN officers were taught to navigate?


    Of course, a few examples of disastrous inattention don’t show that all RN navigators are of low skill. That would be a silly thing to claim on the evidence. But it would also fly in the face of the evidence to claim that today’s required standard of navigation is at all high.

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