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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Plymouth
    Posts
    7,629

    Default Re: LPG Bubble Tester essential?

    Yes, and I must say that I made a mistake on the post number I was referring to it was in fact post three - of yours. : -}

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    I Live near Cambridge and sail the wash and east coast
    Posts
    242

    Default Re: LPG Bubble Tester essential?

    Quote Originally Posted by pvb View Post
    How on earth do you think a bubble tester would have found the loose connection at the cylinder? Do you know how bubble testers


    Not if the gas locker had been properly gas-tight, as it should have been.



    The report into the explosion said that the bilge pumping procedure was basically worthless, and "have the undesirable effect of giving crews a false sense of security". Maybe that's why the crew weren't unduly bothered when the gas alarm went off twice the day before the explosion. Maybe that's also why the crew weren't bothered when they came back from the pub and could smell gas in the gas locker. If the crew had enjoyed a healthier respect for LPG, the explosion wouldn't have happened.
    Yes, that is why I said they should have tested the bottle with liquid.
    The locker was not gas tight as there was a hole in it, many boats donít have gas safe lockers.
    The bilge pumping was not used as the boat was in harbour, the principle works at sea. It is pump to dry and an on other 20 pumps.
    Bear in mind the JSASTC do more sea miles than most, they have less incidents if you take the miles into account. The processes do work, but relying on any system and ignoring your nose is not a good approach.

    Lest be straight LPG is potentially dangerous in a boat. There is enough evidence of explosions to demonstrate this. That lest mean it canít be safe with common sense, but there will always be risk.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    5,455

    Default Re: LPG Bubble Tester essential?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulieraw View Post
    Yes, that is why I said they should have tested the bottle with liquid.
    The locker was not gas tight as there was a hole in it, many boats don’t have gas safe lockers.
    The bilge pumping was not used as the boat was in harbour, the principle works at sea. It is pump to dry and an on other 20 pumps.
    Bear in mind the JSASTC do more sea miles than most, they have less incidents if you take the miles into account. The processes do work, but relying on any system and ignoring your nose is not a good approach.

    Lest be straight LPG is potentially dangerous in a boat. There is enough evidence of explosions to demonstrate this. That lest mean it can’t be safe with common sense, but there will always be risk.
    Obviously, different pumps will clear different volumes, but I'd guess that 20 pumps clear at most 20 litres of air/gas from the bilges. That strikes me as an insignificant volume. and it will be coming from the location where the sump is, which could easily not be connected to a location where gas will flow to from the gas locker, so you are pumping 20 litres of air from the cabin. And that's assuming the bilge pump works effectively with gas; it may well not!

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    17,091

    Default Re: LPG Bubble Tester essential?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulieraw View Post
    Having known of a boat go up in Poole harbour where the Skipper lost his leg, LPG should be treated with respect. The boat belonged to Military and I know they have a principle of gas on at the bottle, light the stove, gas off at the bottle then turn the stove off when it goes out. That reduces the risk.
    I'm not sure we should all be adopting procedures which have failed so dramatically.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    17,091

    Default Re: LPG Bubble Tester essential?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulieraw View Post
    The other thing joint service crews do is hand pump the bilges dry plus 20. This pumps any gas out of the bilges ...
    Only if a system designed to pump water also pumps gas and only if twenty strokes removes all the gas and only if there is no time for diffusion to take place.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    17,091

    Default Re: LPG Bubble Tester essential?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulieraw View Post
    Gas is heavier than air so sits and remains in the bilges. Unless you get the gas out it will build eventually to an explosive mixture.
    Not true. Although both propane (molecular weight 44) and butane (58) are both heavier than nitrogen (28) and oxygen (32) they aren't very much heavier and mix quite fast by diffusion. If they didn't, there would be no risk of explosion, which in any case only exists when the gas has diffused enough to be below the upper explosive limit (9.5%) but above the lower limit (2.4%). A slow leak will diffuse away fast enough to avoid ever becoming explosive.

    Some interesting experimental results at http://www.inpharmix.com/jps/Propane_dif_polycarb.html
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    17,091

    Default Re: LPG Bubble Tester essential?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    I will disagree, I've seen at close quarters how the military train, repeat, repeat, repeat until you don't need to process an action in the higher cortex..
    Very useful in some circumstances, I expct, but perhaps where gas safety is concerned more intelligent decision making and less learned reflex would be useful?
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  8. #68
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    UK East Coast
    Posts
    32,398

    Default Re: LPG Bubble Tester essential?

    It wasn't deleted by me, the wretched mobile site deleted it for me! Can't be bothered to type it again, suffice it to say that LPG on a boat is perfectly safe if the crew is sensible.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Boat Orwell - Me Norwich
    Posts
    5,704

    Default Re: LPG Bubble Tester essential?

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    I'm not sure we should all be adopting procedures which have failed so dramatically.
    +1
    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Only if a system designed to pump water also pumps gas and only if twenty strokes removes all the gas and only if there is no time for diffusion to take place.
    +1
    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Not true. . . .A slow leak will diffuse away fast enough to avoid ever becoming explosive.
    +1
    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Very useful in some circumstances, I expct, but perhaps where gas safety is concerned more intelligent decision making and less learned reflex would be useful?
    +10!

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Winter in Falmouth, summer on board Rampage.
    Posts
    4,659

    Default Re: LPG Bubble Tester essential?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    I will disagree, I've seen at close quarters how the military train, repeat, repeat, repeat until you don't need to process an action in the higher cortex..
    You have a misplaced faith in the military if you really believe that! After 35 years in the military, I can tell you that you're missing an important element: train, repeat, supervise, repeat, supervise, repeat and so ad infinitum. Remove the supervision and all the good habits disappear overnight and the easy way of doing things is readopted.

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