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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Boat- SoF
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    3,752

    Default Re: EU takes action against Malta, Greece and Cyprus on VAT

    Italy has last year ? , announced a flat rate of €100,000 per annum tax for High Net Worth individuals for irrc 17 years - if they relocate to Italy .
    As infered ^^^ it’s better they come to IT , spend €€€ on a suitable properties , spend more €€€ re configuring them , spend €€ @ in how ever many car dealerships , staff , gardeners etc —- schools , planes n trains ,— oh nearly forgot - berth there Yacht .
    Feel able to up size the yacht ( now massive saving in world wide tax ) .
    The IT “ ruling body “ has clarified the VAT status for these none IT HNW of there hopefully new IT built yacht , by allowing an AIS or other electronic trace of 15 ( or what ever miles ? ) as evidence from the IT shipyard that the vessels sale was outside IT waters for the purposes of VAT mitigation.
    Previous to this most port authority s did not allow this and built barriers ,made it awkward.

    Two things
    1 - trickle down wealth of HNW
    2 - boost the boat SY industry in Italy

    So you are better off with them the HNW ,s as opposed to against them tax wise .

    So the Italians have in a Del Boy kinda way undercut everybody else in the EU with an attractive package for HNW,s and boosted it’s SY industry.

    Hope MapishM is not too sick reading this
    Last edited by Portofino; 14-03-18 at 15:22.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    London/Antibes
    Posts
    21,914

    Default Re: EU takes action against Malta, Greece and Cyprus on VAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Portofino View Post
    So the Italians have in a Del Boy kinda way undercut everybody else in the EU with an attractive package for HNW,s and boosted it’s SY industry.
    Yup. Ref the bit quoted above, IT is merely keeping up. As a HNW you can get a similar personal tax outcome (broadly, €/£100k pa, in UK, Ireland, Jersey, France, Australia, NZ, Hong Kong, CH, Monaco and a stack of others I struggle to remember.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    15,438

    Default Re: EU takes action against Malta, Greece and Cyprus on VAT

    Quote Originally Posted by mikef View Post
    Before you criticise anyone for avoiding VAT on a boat purchase
    Actually I'm not, if you re-read my previous post. It's rather the fact that this can happen, that I'm criticizing.
    If anything, I might agree with Pan when he says that it's not the world in general which is sick, but rather the morons in charge.
    But the final result is that what we are debating has always happened, and I it's unlikely that will ever change.
    So, I believe it's easy to see what I mean when I summarize/simplify the situation by saying that we live in a sick world.
    Not that there's any need to look at pleasure boats to establish that: the global financial meltdown and its outcome already proved that beyond any reasonable doubt - and also other general events before and after that. I'd rather not write a summary of economic history, though...

    But in reply to jfm question about whether it's the absolute value or the percentage, it's neither.
    What is sick is the total lack of fairness, which puts those who can only afford a small rib in the condition to pay VAT just because a tax avoidance consultant would cost way more than their whole boat, while for FB and the likes it makes a lot of economic sense, because there's much more at stake.
    In other words, we have some general principles on one hand - like the existence of a consumption tax (and I'm using this generic term purposely, because in this context the many differences between say the EU VAT and the US sales tax are irrelevant) to be paid by anyone on anything "consumed". We can all agree that this is reasonably fair, I hope.
    Otoh, we have the real world rules governing these principles, with all their complications, loopholes, differences between Countries, etc.
    The final result being that there are almost always ways for FB and the likes (I mean, legal-ish ways, not the straight evasion of old) to avoid paying the boat VAT, or just about any other tax.
    It's just a matter of cost comparison between the tax potentially avoided and the cost of putting in place whatever it takes to do it legally enough.
    Now, if this doesn't qualify as a sick distortion, I don't know what else does.

    And I completely disagree with BruceK when he says that these views depend on political ideas.
    It's all too common these days to dismiss (or support) some concepts based on the supposed political position of whoever express them.
    I'm all for capitalism, and I'm happy to have lived in a system which allowed me to earn as a CEO more than about two hundreds of other folks in the same company - though I suspect that I worked my bollox off more to run a business which wasn't my own, compared to how much FB did to run his rather peculiar business (the true one, I mean), but let's not go into that.
    What I'm trying to say is that I'm a supporter of the system we live in, and I wish to see its distortion amended precisely for that reason - i.e. quite the opposite of those who wish to destroy it.
    Not that I'm holding my breath though, because I'm not planning to live for another 50 or 60 years - and I'm not even sure that would be enough...

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    15,438

    Default Re: EU takes action against Malta, Greece and Cyprus on VAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Portofino View Post
    Hope MapishM is not too sick reading this
    No worries L, as long as you don't throw EGT and deadrise in the debate, I can stand it!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    London
    Posts
    188

    Default Re: EU takes action against Malta, Greece and Cyprus on VAT

    Quote Originally Posted by jfm View Post
    Yup. Ref the bit quoted above, IT is merely keeping up. As a HNW you can get a similar personal tax outcome (broadly, €/£100k pa, in UK, Ireland, Jersey, France, Australia, NZ, Hong Kong, CH, Monaco and a stack of others I struggle to remember.
    I wasn't aware of it happening in the UK. Is this for a fixed term for HNW applying for residence here? Some kind of relatively short time limit on it? Given the current left wing renaissance in the UK i'm surprised it's not been "outed" in the media (traditional or social) "billionaire pays 5% tax when nurse pays 30%" or something.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    15,438

    Default Re: EU takes action against Malta, Greece and Cyprus on VAT

    Quote Originally Posted by jfm View Post
    As a matter of intrinsic fairness to promote efficiency in governments, you can argue that counties should be allowed to compete with each other by lowering taxes to attract activity. If not, you have a cartel don't you?
    Sure, but cartels aren't bad per se, it's their "private" use which creates distortions.
    There's nothing wrong with them when established by governing bodies, in order to create a fair playground.
    EU harmonization is all well and good in principle. It's the fact that they can't put it in practice that makes it a joke.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    London
    Posts
    188

    Default Re: EU takes action against Malta, Greece and Cyprus on VAT

    Quote Originally Posted by sorabain View Post
    I wasn't aware of it happening in the UK. Is this for a fixed term for HNW applying for residence here? Some kind of relatively short time limit on it? Given the current left wing renaissance in the UK i'm surprised it's not been "outed" in the media (traditional or social) "billionaire pays 5% tax when nurse pays 30%" or something.
    (I'm assuming you mean mainland UK and not just certain small crown dependencies where I can imagine deals can be made)

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Conwy
    Posts
    2,534

    Default Re: EU takes action against Malta, Greece and Cyprus on VAT

    Quote Originally Posted by MapisM View Post
    And I completely disagree with BruceK when he says that these views depend on political ideas.
    ...
    I dont see how you can divorce the morality or fairness of your argument from a socio-political stance. As fairness and morality are concepts that need a yardstick by which to measure them. Political stance will alter the yardstick.

    As for your sentiments I whole heartedly agree with you, from both ends of the spectrum I may add. I see many examples of really hard working low income people doing miserable jobs for no dollar while others live the life of Riley abusing the social benefits system. That's not fair either. There was a time when as a young salaried worker earning well that I could not afford to send my kids to afterschool daycare and all the school trips etc etc while kids who's parents were life long benefit cheats had the lot. To overcome this my wife had to give up her career for 8 years.So what's fair is always relative and always skewed to the eye of the individual that makes that call.
    Last edited by BruceK; 14-03-18 at 17:22.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Posts
    1,019

    Default Re: EU takes action against Malta, Greece and Cyprus on VAT

    Quote Originally Posted by sorabain View Post
    I wasn't aware of it happening in the UK. Is this for a fixed term for HNW applying for residence here? Some kind of relatively short time limit on it? Given the current left wing renaissance in the UK i'm surprised it's not been "outed" in the media (traditional or social) "billionaire pays 5% tax when nurse pays 30%" or something.
    Have you never wondered why the Russian Oligarchs are here? It is not just that Russia is a corrupt cesspit. Or why London is stuffed to the gills with HNW individuals from elsewhere around the globe, why it is France's 6th largest city since they introduced their ISF (v. nasty wealth tax). And why the high end property in London has gone bonkers? It's not a mystery and it is not secret, it's also a quagmire of complexity. Start here for an intro:
    https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-incom...iled-residents

    Now talking about fairness - why can I not get the benefit of all this, but the foreigners can? That's not fair.
    Last edited by Zing; 14-03-18 at 17:33.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Conwy
    Posts
    2,534

    Default Re: EU takes action against Malta, Greece and Cyprus on VAT

    Another look at your fairness ideal would be .... why should a person who has contributed to the wealth and living of so many other people be so heavily punished with a taxation that is not in keeping with the rest of the population? Should he really pay more because he worked so much harder and smarter? Take the British NI for example. Salary based. My heart op did cost any more than his heart op, nor did I receive any preferential treatment to "him" despite the fact that in terms of money invested into the system I trumped him several fold. Same goes for my garbage collection, municipal services, roads, infrastructure. Why should any man who enjoys the same infrastucture pay any more or less than another. Next will come the argument to have means tested TV licences and vehicle excise duty etc.

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