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Thread: Steelboats

  1. #1291
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    7,215

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    So there’s money to be made by selling steel stock to dreamers? Tell me something I didn’t know.. It doesn’t alter my basic premise one iota that if the design and concept was half as good as BS claims, there’d be at least one or two boat yards building and selling them.
    there are!!

  2. #1292
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Farnham, Surrey
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    21,318

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by robertj View Post
    there are!!
    Examples please?

    We’re talking about proper production boatyards not one man dreamers like BS making one for a paying mate occasionally when he feels like it.
    Semper aliud

  3. #1293
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Oxfordshire, Gosport and Wellington New Zealand.
    Posts
    8,108

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    Examples please?

    We’re talking about proper production boatyards not one man dreamers like BS making one for a paying mate occasionally when he feels like it.
    Plenty of self assembly alloy sheet kits available for home weld and build in NZ, all trailer fishing/sport boats.

    Cant tell if they are origami or not from the ads in NZ's equivilent to ebay, Trade Me.

    Plenty of steel boat experience in the Evans Bay Motorboat and Yact Club in Welly.

    None of the current or past owners feel the same way that BS does though.

    My mate Errol has a beauty-narrow gutted, long, fast and easily managed solo. Extremley well built and it appears Errol, by the same painstaking experience as BS, has arrived at a similar philosophy regarding long term corrosion proofing.

    He does not rate origami as it has too many compromises for design.

    His boat has been alongside in the Marina for over 12 months while Errol has been working in the far North of NZ building a house. It still looks great, no rust streaks-or none when I left 2 months ago.

    I can see where BS is coming from. If you need what he can fix you up with, thats fine, you get a strong and, if the right steps are taken during build, durable vessel.

    But, cant-or dont want to-do it yourself, probably as or more expensive than a ready made yacht.

    Which, as everybody except BS knows, are very capable vessels also.

    So, you pays your money and make your choice.

    Most dont choose an origami steel yacht.

    And there is the rub.......................
    Last edited by rotrax; 03-06-19 at 11:13.

  4. #1294
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    Jul 2002
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    Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    21,318

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by rotrax View Post

    ....So, you pays your money and make your choice.

    Most dont choose an origami steel yacht.

    And there is the rub.......................
    Which is more or less exactly the other side of the point I was making.
    Semper aliud

  5. #1295
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1,340

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by rotrax View Post
    Plenty of self assembly alloy sheet kits available for home weld and build in NZ, all trailer fishing/sport boats.

    Cant tell if they are origami or not from the ads in NZ's equivilent to ebay, Trade Me.

    Plenty of steel boat experience in the Evans Bay Motorboat and Yact Club in Welly.

    None of the current or past owners feel the same way that BS does though.

    My mate Errol has a beauty-narrow gutted, long, fast and easily managed solo. Extremley well built and it appears Errol, by the same painstaking experience as BS, has arrived at a similar philosophy regarding long term corrosion proofing.

    He does not rate origami as it has too many compromises for design.

    His boat has been alongside in the Marina for over 12 months while Errol has been working in the far North of NZ building a house. It still looks great, no rust streaks-or none when I left 2 months ago.

    I can see where BS is coming from. If you need what he can fix you up with, thats fine, you get a strong and, if the right steps are taken during build, durable vessel.

    But, cant-or dont want to-do it yourself, probably as or more expensive than a ready made yacht.

    Which, as everybody except BS knows, are very capable vessels also.

    So, you pays your money and make your choice.

    Most dont choose an origami steel yacht.

    And there is the rub.......................
    What compromises? Be more specific. Generalizations are meaningless, without specifics.

    Yes, used boats are far cheaper ,if you are willing to settle for plastic. Some are even free, around here.
    People cant give them away . Most of my clients started out with one, and want nothing to do with them any more.
    Good steel boats are far rarer, if you are determined to have the comfort and safety of a steel boat, and not willing to settle for stock plastic. A new stock plastic boat would be exponentially more expensive than a new origami boat. You don't get enough material for 36 ft hull, decks ,cabin, cockpit , wheelhouse, keel ,rudder and skeg for under $10 K.
    Many want a custom boat of all new material, which you don't get in a used boat.
    Most people buy whatever gets the most promotion. If that were not the case, they wouldn't spend $billions on advertising.
    New from Waterline Yachts, is $250 K for a bare hull and decks ,not the $17 K of an origami boat.

  6. #1296
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1,340

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    Examples please?

    We’re talking about proper production boatyards not one man dreamers like BS making one for a paying mate occasionally when he feels like it.
    Production boat yards still have to pay the rent and property taxes, whether they are busy or not. They have to pass that cost on to the next customer who walks in the door, after months of no activity ,and still costing them money . Hire a pro to help you build a backyard boat, incurs no such added expenses.
    One client paid $20 a month, with the use of a shop, and lots of equipment included. Try run a production business on that amount.
    Some have borrowed a welder from an uncle and a torch from a grandpa. Some borrow a building space from an inlaw, or family. Backyard builders have the time to cruise scrapyards and dock sales, avoiding the huge prices of new gear and materials, something production builders cant do. No comparison in finished costs .
    I have always worked for tradesmen's wages, a fraction the cost of shop rates. No personal overhead means I take more home, and the client pays less.
    If you buy new on a loan ,the interest can double the price. Back yard means pay as you go , debt and interest free.
    Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-06-19 at 22:48.

  7. #1297
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1,340

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Mine have a full set of detail drawings and stability calculations.

    Yes, when they vary from them , they definitely take longer.
    After sailing one of my 36 footers from BC to New Zealand and back, skipper Mike Loucks said
    [Quote]

    "I have seen people make many changes and variations from the plans on these boats , but I have never seen one, not one, which was an improvement, in any way ."
    [Quote]

    Voice of experience talking there.

  8. #1298
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    19,533

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    "I have seen people make many changes and variations from the plans on these boats , but I have never seen one, not one, which was an improvement, in any way ."
    The phrase we use over here is "You can't polish a turd".
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  9. #1299
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Oxfordshire, Gosport and Wellington New Zealand.
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    8,108

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    Be more specific. Generalizations are meaningless, without specifics.


    So say's the master of exactly that!

    The truism 'There are none so sanctimonious as reformed reprobates' fits perfectly here Brent.

    There are shapes and sizes that will not work in origami Brent.

    That has been pointed out to you before without challenge.

    Errols boat is, IIRC, a 55 footer.

  10. #1300
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    Dec 2010
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    South Oxfordshire, Gosport and Wellington New Zealand.
    Posts
    8,108

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    What compromises? Be more specific. Generalizations are meaningless, without specifics.

    Yes, used boats are far cheaper ,if you are willing to settle for plastic. Some are even free, around here.
    People cant give them away . Most of my clients started out with one, and want nothing to do with them any more.
    Good steel boats are far rarer, if you are determined to have the comfort and safety of a steel boat, and not willing to settle for stock plastic. A new stock plastic boat would be exponentially more expensive than a new origami boat. You don't get enough material for 36 ft hull, decks ,cabin, cockpit , wheelhouse, keel ,rudder and skeg for under $10 K.
    Many want a custom boat of all new material, which you don't get in a used boat.
    Most people buy whatever gets the most promotion. If that were not the case, they wouldn't spend $billions on advertising.
    New from Waterline Yachts, is $250 K for a bare hull and decks ,not the $17 K of an origami boat.
    Fundemental major flaws in your argument Brent.

    The guy's you say are pissed with ' Stock plastic boats ' are buying at the bottom end of the market. They are buying old knackered ones.

    The other major flaw is that you are comparing apples to pears.

    Very few GRP boats are home built, lots of, by comparison, steel boats are home built. It was possible to buy a GRP hull and superstructure for home completion, but not so common now.

    Many UK yards offer 'sailaway' narrowboat packages at reduced cost-about 40K Stirling.

    You state ' Many want a custom boat of all new material'

    Really? Many-or just a few that you deal with from time to time.

    Again you state ' A new stock plastic boat would be exponentialy more expensive than a new origami boat '

    Not if a yard built it, Brent, which is why you are comparing apples to pears.

    Cost out a yard to build either and your figures are pie in the sky.

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