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Thread: Steelboats

  1. #131
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Out of interest, what was your first boat?
    DW

  2. #132
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    Ask any survivor of any collision caused sinking of a plastic boat, if the toughness of steel matters.
    Its been shown on here that not only are GRP boats extremely strong and don't normally sink when in a collision, but the number of boats that actually sink is vanishingly small and statistically insignificant. So perhaps you should stop making this silly argument. It's an emotional argument with little basis in reality.

    Of course the couple of families that allowed themselves to get run down and their boat sank have strong feelings on the subject, but that doesn't make your emotional argument any more relevant. The truth is that steel boats sink just as well as GRP boats and as there are many thousands more GRP boats sailing round the world than steel boats which makes the statistics of one or two cases become irrelevant.

    To put it another way, I might pluck figures out of the air and point out the number of steel boats that are no longer seaworthy or the number of steel boats that sink for all the relevance this has.

    And before you start citing steel boats that have survived being pounded on coral reefs; it might say more about the navigational inadequacies of those who drive them than the construction methods - it makes as much statistical sense...

    When you have a sense of balance in your arguments, and when you can justify your designs with some calculations (I'm still waiting for sufficient drawings for a proper naval architect to analyse exactly what you claim) then perhaps people will take you seriously?
    Semper aliud

  3. #133
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    In the world that we live in now, where "Recycling" is the new buzz word, steel boats have one huge advantage over ones made of GRP. (Just thought that I would contribute something which isn't personally antagonistic, unlike most of the recent posts on here).

  4. #134
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by NormanS View Post
    In the world that we live in now, where "Recycling" is the new buzz word, steel boats have one huge advantage over ones made of GRP. (Just thought that I would contribute something which isn't personally antagonistic, unlike most of the recent posts on here).
    Correct, Norman S-that is one significant advantage.

  5. #135
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by DownWest View Post
    Out of interest, what was your first boat?
    DW
    A Pipe Dream cruising sloop ,as pictured in the book "Skenes Elements of Yacht Design ",by Francis S Kinney. Like many boats of that era, she had a short keel with a well raked rudder attached to the back of the keel.As an absolute beginner, with almost zero sailing experience, it looked to me to be too far foreward, and I visualized a skeg hung rudder 6 feet further aft, but realizing my lack of experience, I deferred to the designer, a big mistake. After s zig zaging all the way to New Zealand , I made the change , and the improvement was huge on subsequent cruising to Noumea, Vanuatu and Fiji. The change in balance was minimal. It made her far more controlable, but she still had abysmally poor directional stability. Kinney makes no mention of the effect of hull shape on directional stability. Harrison Butler figured that out in 1935, and wrote a book on the subject, and on your side of the pond, designers understood it , but yanks remained ignorant on the matter , until quite recently. Some still don't understand it. A guy I met in Mexico, on a Tartan 37, decided to upgrade to one of my boats,an came for a sail on one. We were standing on the foredeck talking , when he asked " Who is steering" ?
    "No one "I said .
    He said "This I gotta see." He was amazed to see the boat hold a course like she was on rails with no on at the helm. He said his Tartan would veer off course in an instant , if you left the helm. Other yanks were equally amazed at a boat with such directional stability, They don't design them that way in the US.Unlike the Brits, they don't know how to.
    I have heard that rudder change has made huge improvements to similar short keeled traditional boats with keel hung rudders. I would highly recommend it to anyone with such an underwater profile

  6. #136
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    Its been shown on here that not only are GRP boats extremely strong and don't normally sink when in a collision, but the number of boats that actually sink is vanishingly small and statistically insignificant. So perhaps you should stop making this silly argument. It's an emotional argument with little basis in reality.

    Of course the couple of families that allowed themselves to get run down and their boat sank have strong feelings on the subject, but that doesn't make your emotional argument any more relevant. The truth is that steel boats sink just as well as GRP boats and as there are many thousands more GRP boats sailing round the world than steel boats which makes the statistics of one or two cases become irrelevant.

    To put it another way, I might pluck figures out of the air and point out the number of steel boats that are no longer seaworthy or the number of steel boats that sink for all the relevance this has.

    And before you start citing steel boats that have survived being pounded on coral reefs; it might say more about the navigational inadequacies of those who drive them than the construction methods - it makes as much statistical sense...

    When you have a sense of balance in your arguments, and when you can justify your designs with some calculations (I'm still waiting for sufficient drawings for a proper naval architect to analyse exactly what you claim) then perhaps people will take you seriously?
    I was rafted to plastic boat from Connecticut once in Comox. I was building a steel boat, and invited the skipper to drop by and learn the process. He didn't bother.
    Later off Costa Rica, he hit a container in the night and banged 4 ft hole in her, and quickly stepped into a life raft as she sank quickly. Suddenly,. he took a keen interest in a steel boat, and began planning one for his next boat.
    I was at a party recently where a guy told me he was sailing off Baja in the night,and his plastic boat was hit by a whale, and sank quickly, leaving him in a dinghy in the night . When I said his boat should have been steel, he strongly agreed. I met an Aussie steel boat in Nuka Hiva which had come from Galapagos, and had regularly hit whales .No worries.
    There is no way a whale will sink a steel boat, as the one off S Africa, which had a whale land on deck, clearly proves. You couldn't hit a boat much harder with a whale.
    The Gringo would have been cut in half , had she been plastic instead of steel.
    The list of missing at sea on some sites, is very long.
    The reason there are so may more plastic boats out cruising, is because of lies and misinformation about the strength of GRP and the fact that few understand what a steel boat can take. The suggestion that a plastic boat can come anywhere near the toughness of steel is totally ludicrous, dangerously irresponsible, and life threatening. Such disinformation cost the Sleavin family their lives, and we will never know how many more.
    In 1975 , the year I lost my first boat on a reef ( after breaking free from a mooring, while I was ashore), I read there were 35 lost that year on the Tuamotus alone.
    Yes, plastic collisions with hard stuff, is not a problem if you are completely infallible ,and can see containers and other debris awash, on dark, foggy, moonless night. Does that describe you ?
    Superman lives ?
    Good seamanship is leaving as little as possible to chance and luck, such as a hull material which is most forgiving of mistakes (unless you are "infallible.")

    John, I sent you the drawings long ago.
    Last edited by Brent Swain; 09-12-18 at 22:42.

  7. #137
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    I was rafted to plastic boat from Connecticut once in Comox. I was building a steel boat, and invited the skipper to drop by and learn the process. He didn't bother.
    Later off Costa Rica, he hit a container in the night and banged 4 ft hole in her, and quickly stepped into a life raft as she sank quickly. Suddenly,. he took a keen interest in a steel boat, and began planning one for his next boat.
    I was at a party recently where a guy told me he was sailing off Baja in the night,and his plastic boat was hit by a whale, and sank quickly, leaving him in a dinghy in the night . When I said his boat should have been steel, he strongly agreed. I met an Aussie boat in Nuka Hiva which had come from Galapagos and had regularly hit whales .No worries.
    There is no way a whale will sink a steel boat, as the one off S Africa, which had a whale land on deck, clearly proves. You couldn't hit a boat much harder with a whale.
    The Gringo would have been cut in half ,had she been plastic instead of steel.
    The list of missing at sea on some sites, is long.
    The reason there are so may more plastic boats out cruising, is because of lies and misinformation about the strength of GRP and the fact that few understand what a steel boat can take. The suggestion that a plastic boat can come anywhere near the toughness of steel is ludicrous, dangerous irresponsible, and life threatening.Such disinformation cost the Sleavin family their lives, and we will never know how many more.
    In 1975 , the year I lost my boat on a reef ( after breaking free from a mooring) I read there were 35 lost that year on the Tuamotus.
    Yes, plastic collisions with hard stuff, is not a problem if you are completely infallible ,and can see containers and other debris awash, on dark, foggy, moonless night. Does that describe you ?
    Superman lives ?
    Sorry but Iíll call you out on most of that. Youíve quoted a few people/families that youíve quoted before and Iíve explained how statistically insignificant these are.

    Vague references to the Ďmany boats that have been lostí need references. Weíve had this discussion before and despite extensive research Iíve not found any reports of these multiple losses of GRP yachts at sea. If you keep claiming multiple tragedies of yachts lost at sea, please provide some references. You canít and wonít because they donít exist.

    Finally no one is claiming a GRP boat is as strong as a well built steel one. But youíve been shown that GRP boats are incredibly strong and donít break up easily at all. Itís not a matter of whether GRP is stronger or weaker but whether itís strong enough.
    Semper aliud

  8. #138
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    Sorry but I’ll call you out on most of that. You’ve quoted a few people/families that you’ve quoted before and I’ve explained how statistically insignificant these are.

    Vague references to the ‘many boats that have been lost’ need references. We’ve had this discussion before and despite extensive research I’ve not found any reports of these multiple losses of GRP yachts at sea. If you keep claiming multiple tragedies of yachts lost at sea, please provide some references. You can’t and won’t because they don’t exist.

    Finally no one is claiming a GRP boat is as strong as a well built steel one. But you’ve been shown that GRP boats are incredibly strong and don’t break up easily at all. It’s not a matter of whether GRP is stronger or weaker but whether it’s strong enough.
    Yes .a well built plastic boat ( becoming ever rarer) is strong enough ; at sea, but not if it hits anything hard
    You say every single incident is documented, and readily available? From decades ago? Where do you suggest I look? How much will you pay me for my time?
    You say the long lists of missing at sea, on many sites are lying , and you know more about them and where they are? Tell their families that.
    You say the freighter collision with the Gringo didn't happen? The pictures are elsewhere on this site! You say a plastic boat wouldn't have been cut in half by that collision?
    You say the whale landing on the steel boat deck didn't happen? The pictures are on this site! You say that wouldn't have damaged a plastic boat? You say that was the skippers fault?
    What a crock!
    You say the many people at that party, who told me about finding the guy who's boat had been shnk by a whale were all liars? You say you know more about what happened and what didn't happen than the guy in the dinghy over his sunken boat? Tell him it didn't happen, an his boat didn't sink. Then tell him where to find it.
    What a crock!
    This reminds me of a conversation I had with our highways minister recently .We were talking about riding bike facing traffic, rather than with traffic.I was told that statistics give you a higher chance of dying in a collision facing traffic. I agreed. Now what are the statistics of those who avoided a collision facing traffic, because they could see the distracted and drunk drivers coming, and could take evasive action. None exist , because none are taken, just like statistics, and records of steel boats which hit rocks at hull speed, with little or no damage. Thus statistics and records are misleading and tell a totally false story in many cases. Where would one find records of a steel boat hitting a whale or a rock, and suffering no damage? People who seek to mislead , exploit this to prop up arguments which don't stand up to logic.

    I'm reminded of the increasingly common statement on the internet.
    No pictures , didn't happen!
    French revolution? No photos? Didn't happen!
    Voyages of Columbus? No photos ? Didnt happen!
    Age of dinosaurs ?No photos? Didn't happen!
    Sounds a lot like "No documentation, didn't happen!
    What a crock!
    Last edited by Brent Swain; 09-12-18 at 23:34.

  9. #139
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    Yes .a well built plastic boat ( becoming ever rarer) is strong enough ; at sea, but not if it hits anything hard
    You say every single incident is documented, and readily available? From decades ago? You say the long lists of missing at sea, on many sites are lying , and you know more about them and where they are? Tell their families that. You say the freighter collision with the Gringo dint happen? The pictures are elsewhere on this site! You say a plastic boat wouldn't have been cut in half by that collision?
    You say the whale landing on the steel boat deck didn't happen?The pictures are on this site! You say that wouldn't have damaged a plastic boat? You say that was the skippers fault?
    What a crock!
    You say the many people at that party were all liars? You say you know more about what happened and what didn't happen than the guy in the dinghy over his sunken boat?
    What a crock!
    This reminds me of a conversation I had with our highways minister recently .We were talking about riding bike facing traffic, rather than with traffic.I was told that statistics give you a higher chance of dying in a collision facing traffic. I agreed. Now what are the statistics of those who avoided a collision facing traffic, because they could see the distracted and drunk drivers coming, and could take evasive action. None exist , because none are taken, just like statistics, and records of steel boats which hit rocks at hull speed, with little or no damage. Thus statistics and records are misleading and tell a totally false story in many cases. Where would one find records of a steel boat hitting a whale or a rock, and suffering no damage? People who seek to mislead , exploit this to prop up arguments which don't stand up to logic.
    Brent, take a deep breath and stop ranting. I haven’t said any of those extraordinary things didn’t happen.

    However you drop into the middle of your examples lines such as:
    You say the long lists of missing at sea, on many sites are lying , and you know more about them and where they are?
    I’m asking you to give some references to these ‘long lists of missing at sea’.

    We’ve been here before and they don’t exist. So stop pretending that they do or give some references to these many GRP boats lost mysteriously at sea.
    Semper aliud

  10. #140
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    All progress since the stone age was done by those not accepting the "normal Proper" way of doing things and thinking of their own solutions, often being ridiculed and jeered at by luddite ways of thinking.
    "Why Trog invent wheel ? Drag "Proper way." Drag good enough for Grandpa, drag good enough for Trog .Trog lazy!"
    You can always judge the value of advice, by what it has done for the person offering it.

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