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Thread: Steelboats

  1. #451
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfisher 5 View Post
    Yeah … I bet he voted for Brex*t as well. Mostly spouts bolleaux​ as we say in France! I think it's the anonymity of forums has something to do with it!
    I'll take that bet. He lives in Canada and sleeps on his sisters couch when he's not aground on a lee shore, wondering what happened...again.

    Where does Brexit come into it?

  2. #452
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    What on earth has your father’s service got to do with anything? (My father also has the Legion D’Honneur’ and served in the Second World War all through Europe and Palestine). He also landed on D Day itself (second wave and to secure the beach as first wave moved forward). He’s now 94 and knows the square root of NOTHING about the way our contemporary military maintain its ships (and the yachts). I do happen to know something about contemporary maintenance so please stop making silly claims and assertions.

    Furthermore there have always been military screw ups but what point are you making? Are you suggesting that because you can cite some fantastic mistakes, somehow that transfers and rubs off on the whole of the military maintenance program?

    The reason I responded regarding the military was you said your ‘having a word’ with a sailor about ways of preventing rust on a steel ship was ‘ignored’ and dismissed. If you told the average matelot from the RN how to prevent rust they would probably do much the same. It would almost certainly not be their ‘part of ship’. (Tell a caterer or weapons engineer about painting the deck and hopefully they’d be polite but they’d wonder what planet you were from. ) If you got hold of the MEO or 1st Lt (the people who really are interested in maintenance of steel and appearance of the ship) you might have been educated in what really happens and why the chemicals and paint systems used are chosen. Furthermore the coating on an RN ship is definitely not something you can go and buy. I’ll say no more. (Although you can get the grey paint if you want!)

    Your logic, like some of your claims, is delusional of the first order.
    It was implied that the military way was the best.
    We Canadians have first hand experience with the British military way. A while back we bought some submarines from the British military. They didn't make it across the Atlantic before they had a major fire aboard , and had continuous breakdowns on all of them, all the way to Victoria BC , where it took $millions of dollars and years to get the first one seaworthy.

    They are the laughing stock and of Canada, and the butt of many jokes.

    Yes, your suggestion that any individual is so specialized that they are totally dense in any other area but his specialty, is the military way of doing things.
    Yes, rank over logic is is definitely their way of thinking and doing things, responsible for many a military screwup. Had a mere private pointed out the need to block the panzer divisions in the Schelde Peninsula, during the D day invasion, his low rank would have got him laughed out of the office.
    Seems they totally missed the point Napoleon made , when he said "In every drummer boys knapsack is a field marshall's baton."

    Snobby pecking order often over rules saving lives, in many a battle.

    Some try to make it over rule logic, and decades of hands on experience, in these debates, as well.

    An ex-navy friend said this reaches extremes on the navy training ships.
    He said on the 90 ft Ketch Oriol ,the "trainees" are given one halyard or sheet, and that is the only thing they ever deal with, learning nothing else on the so called "Navy training ketch."
    For an offshore cruiser , that kind of tunnel vision could prove disasterous. An offshore cruiser should know as much as possible about everything on a cruising boat, especially single handers . Military "Specialist "ways there would be ludicrous. Remote areas don't have a repair man "specialist" under every palm tree, nor are they available in mid ocean.

    I once made a suggestion to a client, who works in the coast guard, for getting oil off a sunken WW2 ship on the north coast.
    He said the rank snobbery is so thick there, that any suggestion, however good or practical it may be , can get you fired , as it means suggesting you have thought of something which someone of greater rank has not. It has nothing to do with the merits of the suggestion.
    A Portuguese cruise ship skipper and cruise ship designer I know, said he has seen it first hand, and would not last more than a day having to deal with such childish snobbery, without losing his temper, and calling them exactly what they are.
    Fortunately we, here in Canada, for the most part, don't buy such childish social snobbery pecking orders, such as you British are brainwashed into passively accepting, and we tend to judge ideas on their own merit.( Culture shock to the ultra childish, "British class system!") It lets innovative ideas ( like better ways of building and outfitting cruising boats) be enjoyed , and benefited from, regardless of the snobbery of the source. It prevents childish snobbery from holding us back, at least some of us. The practical cruise and play, while the pretentious remain tied to the dock , working , for money they don't have , to pay for what they don't need ,to impress people they don't like.

    Seeing ways that result in taking years , sometimes decades , and huge amounts of money, to get off the hamster wheel of consumerism ,and out cruising, and believing advice coming from those who took that long, will get you any different results, while ridiculing advice from those who made it quickly and easily, early in life, is delusional in the extreme .

    "Insanity " is repeating the same experiment, over and over again ,hoping for a different result!"
    Albert Einstein
    Last edited by Brent Swain; 09-01-19 at 00:25.

  3. #453
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    It was implied that the military way was the best.
    We Canadians have first hand experience with the British military way. A while back we bought some submarines from the British military. They didn't make it across the Atlantic before they had a major fire aboard , and had continuous breakdowns on all of them, all the way to Victoria BC , where it took $millions of dollars and years to get the first one seaworthy
    No such implication was made. You raised the subject in the first place trying to show how superior your pet methods are.

    You are now trying to squirm out of your statements by changing the subject.

    Try going back to your ridiculous claims of the unsinkable steel boat and how easy it is to put a fire out by shutting the hatches. Try explaining how the video of the GRP boat hitting steel semi submerged objects and rocks without hardly a scratch or alone sinking demonstrates how dangerous GRP boats are?

    All you can come back to are one of two examples of GRP boats lost at sea.

    Steel is a great choice for some sailors but not everyone wants to sail in a cobbled together skip of a boat.
    Semper aliud

  4. #454
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    Oct 2010
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    No such implication was made. You raised the subject in the first place trying to show how superior your pet methods are.

    You are now trying to squirm out of your statements by changing the subject.

    Try going back to your ridiculous claims of the unsinkable steel boat and how easy it is to put a fire out by shutting the hatches. Try explaining how the video of the GRP boat hitting steel semi submerged objects and rocks without hardly a scratch or alone sinking demonstrates how dangerous GRP boats are?

    All you can come back to are one of two examples of GRP boats lost at sea.

    Steel is a great choice for some sailors but not everyone wants to sail in a cobbled together skip of a boat.
    Out of all the plastic boats which have hit rocks, you say one survived?
    Impressive!
    Out of a tiny fleet around here, 4 plastic boats hit rocks , and all ended up taking on water.
    You say plastic would have survived the full speed T boning by a freighter ,in the "Gringo" incident?
    Delusional!
    You say a fire on board, out of control, should be fought by leaving all the hatches open, giving it plenty of air, and diving into the inferno with fire extinguishers, breathing deeply the toxic fumes ?
    "Delusional!"

    Not everyone wants to cruise in a fragile plastic shell, as you imply. My posts are for those who know better, or who want to know better.
    Yes, plastic is a huge improvement over wood ( dead vegetation) ,but no where near a match for steel, in terms of toughness.
    Last edited by Brent Swain; 09-01-19 at 00:50.

  5. #455
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Please keep posting Brent. Your tirades are helping people come to a balanced view about boat construction.

    (Just not in the way that I believe you intend!)
    Semper aliud

  6. #456
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    Please keep posting Brent. Your tirades are helping people come to a balanced view about boat construction.

    (Just not in the way that I believe you intend!)
    Rather underhanded way of treating people. IS this your military training John?
    Brent is right about fire being put out by battening down the hatches.
    Hes right about our class system.
    I feel hes right about the military class system aswell.
    Whether hes right about being a laughing stock I cant comment.

  7. #457
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by robertj View Post
    Rather underhanded way of treating people. IS this your military training John?
    Brent is right about fire being put out by battening down the hatches.
    He’s right about our class system.
    I feel he’s right about the military class system aswell.
    Whether he’s right about being a laughing stock I can’t comment.
    I completely agree that you can put a fire out by shutting off the air supply. However it’s delusional to suggest that’s an easy thing to do on a yacht. Any decent yacht has lots of ventilation and dorades etc. It’s very difficult to seal everything effectively enough to put out a fire. It’s a last resort ploy before you end up in the life-raft. (Except Brent doesn’t believe in life-rafts.)

    I’ve no idea why you mention class. It’s nothing to do with delusional claims about boat design and safety.

    I try and respect people and their opinions. Unfortunately this isn’t reciprocated by Brent.

    The real problem is that Brent doesn’t offer balanced suggestions but makes sweeping claims that simply aren’t totally true.
    There are lots of dreamers who are possibly going to be suckered into believing his hype (it’s exactly the message that some want to hear) and that means people sailing away into the sunset with ideas that they’re safe because they’ve got an impregnable steel boat. It’s a fantasy. (A bit like Brent’s attitude and opinions of GRP boats safety!)

    Sailing and boats and yacht design and construction is more complex than Brent claims.

    He cites a slack handful of disasters with GRP boats and extrapolates this to denigrate all GRP

    He cites his boat and his experiences (a statistical sample of one) as a reason why his peculiar build is better. He claims to have built a few others but so what. The thousands of other boats in steel or wood or GRP seem to count for nothing.

    The sadness is that some of his ideas may be innovative and valuable. However in his zeal and OTT approach any value is lost as you can’t tell the rubbish and downright dangerous from the interesting and potentially valuable.
    Semper aliud

  8. #458
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    May 2007
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    I completely agree that you can put a fire out by shutting off the air supply. However it’s delusional to suggest that’s an easy thing to do on a yacht. Any decent yacht has lots of ventilation and dorades etc. It’s very difficult to seal everything effectively enough to put out a fire. It’s a last resort ploy before you end up in the life-raft. (Except Brent doesn’t believe in life-rafts.)

    I’ve no idea why you mention class. It’s nothing to do with delusional claims about boat design and safety.

    I try and respect people and their opinions. Unfortunately this isn’t reciprocated by Brent.

    The real problem is that Brent doesn’t offer balanced suggestions but makes sweeping claims that simply aren’t totally true.
    There are lots of dreamers who are possibly going to be suckered into believing his hype (it’s exactly the message that some want to hear) and that means people sailing away into the sunset with ideas that they’re safe because they’ve got an impregnable steel boat. It’s a fantasy. (A bit like Brent’s attitude and opinions of GRP boats safety!)
    KKJ
    Sailing and boats and yacht design and construction is more complex than Brent claims.

    He cites a slack handful of disasters with GRP boats and extrapolates this to denigrate all GRP

    He cites his boat and his experiences (a statistical sample of one) as a reason why his peculiar build is better. He claims to have built a few others but so what. The thousands of other boats in steel or wood or GRP seem to count for nothing.

    The sadness is that some of his ideas may be innovative and valuable. However in his zeal and OTT approach any value is lost as you can’t tell the rubbish and downright dangerous from the interesting and potentially valuable.
    Brent seems to have done exactly what he claims some 6 Pacific crossing to mention but a few. He must have some knowledge and experience and I believe built his own boats?
    Bearing in mind he has built his yachts sailed said yachts for many many years and still here after many years must give his methods of build techniques some credence?
    How many yachts have you built John?
    I feel there is a witch hunt here with many jumping on the bandwagon to pick up on any possible discrepancy of his advice.
    Brent mentioned the class system I believe.

  9. #459
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by robertj View Post
    Brent seems to have done exactly what he claims some 6 Pacific crossing to mention but a few. He must have some knowledge and experience and I believe built his own boats?
    Bearing in mind he has built his yachts sailed said yachts for many many years and still here after many years must give his methods of build techniques some credence?
    How many yachts have you built John?
    I feel there is a witch hunt here with many jumping on the bandwagon to pick up on any possible discrepancy of his advice.
    Brent mentioned the class system I believe.
    No witch hunt, but sailing a few miles doesn’t make you an expert on yacht design and certainly doesn’t qualify you to decide that much of the research and experiences and knowledge of naval architects is wrong.

    I’ve been involved in the complete reconstruction of a couple of boats and saw the building of a steel boat. (No chines but rolled and shaped; then plasma sprayed etc but we still had rust problems within a few years). But building a boat (whilst commendable and noteworthy) definitely doesn’t make you an expert or give you knowledge to trump all criticism. For most people it’s a humbling experience that makes them realise that there are many ways to achieve an objective and how all boat design is a compromise.

    Frankly some of Brent’s claims are phantasmagoric and for the sake of dreamers who might be taken in (by what they want to hear), his more fantastic claims need to be robustly challenged.

    Above all, he needs to get a sense of proportion.
    Semper aliud

  10. #460
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    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    No witch hunt, but sailing a few miles doesn’t make you an expert on yacht design and certainly doesn’t qualify you to decide that much of the research and experiences and knowledge of naval architects is wrong.
    It seems a very strange phenomenon to me. I've driven cars for 40 years but don't have the first idea about designing them. Ditto for aircraft etc.

    What is it about sailing that leads a sailor to believe with an almost religious fervor, that his/her years of pottering about automatically bestow upon them god like knowledge in all things nautical?

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