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Thread: Steelboats

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    855

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream believer View Post
    You have built 40 boats( quoted in one of your other posts, not this one, do not know what happened to the other 4- did they sink?) in 40 years & you claim to have averaged 11 months sailing for the last 40 years.
    Wow!! How many months do you have in your typical year??
    i have put together38 boats. I do a 36 ft shell ,hull, decks, cabin cockpit , keel rudder and skeg in 100 hours, working mostly alone, much less time with an owner who knows a bit of metal work. i did a 36 shell for a farmer who was able to do a lot .Took me 40 hours to get that shell together. I'd just mark plate out and throw it on the ground. While he cut and ground it , I marked the next piece. Some jobs are like that. Most owners learn metal working on the job. Some have gone on to be qualified tradesmen in the process.

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    855

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by rotrax View Post
    Then why use a long winded load of bolleux to tell us something we are all inteligent enought to know?

    I have two very excellent boats, the steel Hartley, fully equiped for cruising and liveaboard cost $8000 NZ. 4,000 Sterling four years ago.

    The Island Packet SP Cruiser was much more costly, but was certainly not expensive for a boat of its age and quality.

    Both were the price I was prepared to pay and I got exactly what I expected. No dissapointments.

    A truism I believe in, confirmed by over 50 years of wheeling and dealing is that anything you wish to sell is only worth what you can get for it.

    I am sure you find the same........................
    Many mistake resale value for resale price.Resale price is what you can get for her; resale value is the difference between what you can get for her ,and what she cost you in the first place. My last boat sold for over 4 times what I had into her (to a happy owner). Then there is the million dollar 37 ft carbon cutter.Who is going to spend a million dollars on any used 37 footer, regardless of what she is made of. So don't make the mistake of spending an extra $40K to increase the resale price by $20 K ,a common mistake on home built boats. Keep the price low, and you stand a far better chance of getting your money back ,or not losing as much. Good logic, instead of throwing more money, will also get you a much better boat for far less.

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Solent
    Posts
    505

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    Read it . Good info on some points and wrong on others. Very good point on the need to epoxy before insulating . Not doing so costs far to many steel boats, which could have gone on for decades, had they been properly epoxied inside.
    My boat used wheelabraded steel with zinc primer on ,34 years ago. It has never been sand blasted , no problems. Cold galvanizing zinc primer simply doesn't chip, and once you prime it , the surface of the zinc is the same , sandblasting or no sandblasting. A slightly rougher surface below the zinc makes no difference whatsoever, as the zinc primer fills it in.
    My spray foam has no odour whatsoever, after 34 years of f living aboard. Yes, it would be a problem with a smoker, as would anything else in the interior. Simple solution. Don't smoke. Many smokers leave their homes today, to smoke outside.
    60 mils of mascoat or anything else, is a pretty slim excuse for insulation, in these winters.
    Yes, spray foam can burn ,but a friend who had a raging fire on board, said the foam stopped burning, cold, where it met cheap latex paint. Nothing fancy, just recycling depot free stuff. As I have pointed out, a fire on a steel boat can be stopped very quickly, by sealing the boat airtight. No, fires can't keep burning without air, a lot of air. I have seen nothing as good as, nor an adequate substitute for ,spray foam, to make a steel boat liveable in a cold climate. It makes a huge difference in comfort level , one I would not care to live without. Boats around here have tried many alternatives like mascoat, and all have eventually spray foamed.

    If you check Kasten's website, on building methods , you will see he claims that my origami building methods cant be used for decks, cabins, cockpits keels, rudders, wheelhouses, and skegs , only for the hull. If you check the origamiboats site photos section, and Alex's video, along with other sites, online, you will see origami methods being used for all the above, as we have been doing since 1980. I pointed this out to Kasten many years ago, but he continues to keep disinformation, and to deliberately mislead, on his website. When a friend was organizing the Metal Boat Society annual gathering , she asked Kasten if he would be there.
    Kasten asked if I would be there.
    She said "Maybe."
    Kasten said there was no way he would be there, if I might show up. Seems he has zero confidence in his arguments holding up in a balanced debate, with someone with decades of hands on steel boat building ,ocean crossing , living aboard and maintaining experience. His falsehoods would be quickly revealed, and his 'Expert" cover blown. He obviously knows that.
    Getting all your advice from someone who has been a crusader against innovation, progressive ideas, and advancements in steel boat building methods, can add years to your boat building project , for zero benefit, as can paying him for any advice.
    Kasten makes some good points, and some naive points. Makes me wonder how much cold climate , steel boat living aboard he has had. Ask him.
    I have seen nothing as good as spray foam , yet.
    Thanks very much for this Brent. 60 mils seemed a bit thin to me too. I suppose it depends where you live.

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    855

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by SlowlyButSurely View Post
    Thanks very much for this Brent. 60 mils seemed a bit thin to me too. I suppose it depends where you live.
    Several years ago I heard about a ceramic addative which one could add to paint, to make it a super insulator, with some ridiculous claims of effectiveness. I mixed some with epoxy, and put it in some 4 inch stainless vents behind my fore hatch, which used to rain condensation.It stopped the condensation dead ; until I stated cooking and canning. Then it rained condensation. I found some 1mm thick closed cell foam, which I stuck in them, which stopped the condensation dead, even when cooking or canning. You could put boiling water in a styrofoam cup ,and hold the outside, which will be slightly warm. That's one hell of an effective insulator, given the thicknes of the cup and the temperature difference.You can then try any "super insulator" on a tin cup, with the same experiment ,for a comparison.

    Ask Kasten of he has spent a winter living on his own steel boat, with the insulation he advocates. The closed cell neoprene he advocates, is extremely expensive. Beware of advocates who make no consideration of your pocket book , and cruising funds.
    Last edited by Brent Swain; 03-11-18 at 23:13.

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    28,248

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    Several years ago I heard about a ceramic addative which one could add to paint, to make it a super insulator, with some ridiculous claims of effectiveness. I mixed some with epoxy, and put it in some 4 inch stainless vents behind my fore hatch, which used to rain condensation.It stopped the condensation dead ; until I stated cooking and canning. Then it rained condensation. I found some 1mm thick closed cell foam, which I stuck in them, which stopped the condensation dead, even when cooking or canning. You could put boiling water in a styrofoam cup ,and hold the outside, which will be slightly warm. That's one hell of an effective insulator, given the thicknes of the cup and the temperature difference.You can then try any "super insulator" on a tin cup, with the same experiment ,for a comparison.

    Ask Kasten of he has spent a winter living on his own steel boat, with the insulation he advocates. The closed cell neoprene he advocates, is extremely expensive. Beware of advocates who make no consideration of your pocket book , and cruising funds.
    1mm seems awfully thin. Do you really mean 1mm?

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    855

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by A1Sailor View Post
    1mm seems awfully thin. Do you really mean 1mm?
    Yes, roughly 1mm. It was very thin.

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Oxfordshire, Gosport and Wellington New Zealand.
    Posts
    6,757

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    Many mistake resale value for resale price.Resale price is what you can get for her; resale value is the difference between what you can get for her ,and what she cost you in the first place. My last boat sold for over 4 times what I had into her (to a happy owner). Then there is the million dollar 37 ft carbon cutter.Who is going to spend a million dollars on any used 37 footer, regardless of what she is made of. So don't make the mistake of spending an extra $40K to increase the resale price by $20 K ,a common mistake on home built boats. Keep the price low, and you stand a far better chance of getting your money back ,or not losing as much. Good logic, instead of throwing more money, will also get you a much better boat for far less.
    Again BS, why this information?

    If you read, look, mark and inwardly digest most contributors posts on this thread you can come to no other conclusion that they are experienced in sailing and worldly wide matters. The above info is something we all know.

    Also, you appear to judge other sailing centres by the backwater that you sail in.

    There are very few homebuilt boats in the UK by comparison to factory finished ones. Your advice is therefore pretty irelevant to 99.9% of the members of this forum.

    There are plenty of million dollar race boats in the Solent, which as you must be aware is one of the racing hotspots of the world.

    If someone thinks your million dollar carbon cutter can cut it as a raceboat or fast cruiser it will be sold.

    Like the boats you build, it all depends how good it is and what someone is prepared to pay.

    As I said before, ANYTHING you wish to sell is only worth what you can get for it.

    The price achieved is the resale value-any profit or loss is irrelevant.

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Southminster, essex
    Posts
    8,340

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
    i have put together38 boats. I do a 36 ft shell ,hull, decks, cabin cockpit , keel rudder and skeg in 100 hours, working mostly alone, much less time with an owner who knows a bit of metal work. i did a 36 shell for a farmer who was able to do a lot .Took me 40 hours to get that shell together. I'd just mark plate out and throw it on the ground. While he cut and ground it , I marked the next piece. Some jobs are like that. Most owners learn metal working on the job. Some have gone on to be qualified tradesmen in the process.
    Some typical tasks
    Agree the work & a price & where it is to be done & design with the new owner, Organise the construction area. Buy the materials & get them delivered. Set out the steel, cut it to shape, set up the jigs to get an even shape. Lift parts in to place, Steel is not light nor are the tools.
    Get the engine details sorted & lifted in to place. Get the electrics sorted get bulkheads positioned.
    Sorry Brent, your assertions just do not add up.
    I really find it difficult to believe, as I am sure others on the forum will, once they start breaking down the operations involved.
    Plus, when one looks at the state of your welds in a previous thread, I would expect even the simple welding tasks to take a long time due to poor quality work, requiring repeated over welding & unnecessary grinding etc to hide the bodging.
    Try another story.
    It is all down to the fact that my wife does not understand me !!

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Oxfordshire, Gosport and Wellington New Zealand.
    Posts
    6,757

    Default Re: Steelboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream believer View Post
    Some typical tasks
    Agree the work & a price & where it is to be done & design with the new owner, Organise the construction area. Buy the materials & get them delivered. Set out the steel, cut it to shape, set up the jigs to get an even shape. Lift parts in to place, Steel is not light nor are the tools.
    Get the engine details sorted & lifted in to place. Get the electrics sorted get bulkheads positioned.
    Sorry Brent, your assertions just do not add up.
    I really find it difficult to believe, as I am sure others on the forum will, once they start breaking down the operations involved.
    Plus, when one looks at the state of your welds in a previous thread, I would expect even the simple welding tasks to take a long time due to poor quality work, requiring repeated over welding & unnecessary grinding etc to hide the bodging.
    Try another story.
    He can also build a useable block for pennies using aluminium from a scrapheap and a plastic cutting board in less time you can say the above.

    I know he can-he told me......................................

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Pretoria
    Posts
    58

    Default Re: Steelboats

    I also read a few years ago that you could mix ceramic beads into epoxy paint as insulation. Someone claimed you could hold a cutting torch flame to one side of a 3mm plate and your hand to the other. Me, I thought the epoxy would burn... Anyway, when I came to insulating I heard that this would be a no-no, and I could not find ceramic beads anyway, so I used plastic wool battens and aluminised bubble plastic. I will report when I get to Cape Horn...

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