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  1. #91
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
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    Home: Kent. Boat: Chichester
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    42,111

    Default Re: "Occasional" 240v

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRainbow View Post
    Having never fitted a Durite inverter and not being able to find online fitting instructions, i contacted Durite.
    Connect the inverter case ground terminal to the chassis ground when installing in a vehicle, the vessel’s grounding system in a boat or to earth in a fixed location. The case ground terminal is
    connected to the ground terminal in the ac outlet socket.
    So it seems that the output is floating, ie no neutral just two equal conductors , and that if connected as advised by Durite an RCD will be serving no useful purpose, at least until one fault has "earthed" one of the conductors.

    Perhaps there are capacitors between the two output conductors and the case ground terminal. Would this explain the apparent centretap that mathewriches' initial voltage measurements sort of suggested but did not convincingly prove?

  2. #92
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Sweden
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    1,313

    Default Re: "Occasional" 240v

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRainbow View Post
    the AC earth is connected to the case and the case has to be connected to "the vessel’s grounding system", which invariably includes the DC negative.
    ...unless of course the DC system is of the fully insulated type, in which case connecting to DC negative is pointless, at best. (As already covered in post #55 of this thread )

  3. #93
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Suffolk
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    6,145

    Default Re: "Occasional" 240v

    Quote Originally Posted by BabaYaga View Post
    ...unless of course the DC system is of the fully insulated type, in which case connecting to DC negative is pointless, at best. (As already covered in post #55 of this thread )
    Yes, i'm aware of that. I think we've already established that "grounding system" means different things with different boats. Could be a metal hull, could be a ground plate, an anode or the DC negative if that is part of the bonding circuit.
    Rainbow Marine.
    www.rainbowmarine.co.uk

  4. #94
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Suffolk
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    6,145

    Default Re: "Occasional" 240v

    Quote Originally Posted by VicS View Post
    So it seems that the output is floating, ie no neutral just two equal conductors , and that if connected as advised by Durite an RCD will be serving no useful purpose, at least until one fault has "earthed" one of the conductors.

    Perhaps there are capacitors between the two output conductors and the case ground terminal. Would this explain the apparent centretap that mathewriches' initial voltage measurements sort of suggested but did not convincingly prove?
    Further communications with Durite and i'm told the inverters are in fact centre tapped, although they referred to them as centre tied. I'm told that if a fault occurs the inverter will shut down faster than an RCD.
    Rainbow Marine.
    www.rainbowmarine.co.uk

  5. #95
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Ipswich & Southwold
    Posts
    1,006

    Default Re: "Occasional" 240v

    This thread is a comedy of errors really lol
    Electrics & electronics Suffolk & Southwold Boatyard
    Custom Panels + Eberspacher/Webasto

  6. #96
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    solent
    Posts
    1,938

    Default Re: "Occasional" 240v

    Quote Originally Posted by matthewriches View Post
    This thread is a comedy of errors really lol
    yes, and let's keep them all in the online, and R + D arena in the hands of experts You chaps carry on, thank you on my behalf and any others who may come across this later, and when I get a minute this weekend I will investigate our own ancient inverter and report back . For me it has all been about being sure an RCD would work. Maybe too cautious for our use, but that is my goal.

  7. #97
    <152587> is offline Account Closed (By user's request)
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    529

    Default Re: "Occasional" 240v

    Source of amazement as how a question on a forum can induce what I would term bullying, disrespect for other peoples knowledge, downright rudeness and the use of capital letters in a post, presumably to interpret shouting. Forum "experts" should re-read their inputs maybe a week later after they have calmed down and maybe realise the way they promote themselves to the wider audience. Some of you do yourselves no favours, you know who you are.

  8. #98
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    solent
    Posts
    1,938

    Default Re: "Occasional" 240v

    Quote Originally Posted by third engines View Post
    Source of amazement as how a question on a forum can induce what I would term bullying, disrespect for other peoples knowledge, downright rudeness and the use of capital letters in a post, presumably to interpret shouting. Forum "experts" should re-read their inputs maybe a week later after they have calmed down and maybe realise the way they promote themselves to the wider audience. Some of you do yourselves no favours, you know who you are.
    I know what you mean generally about forums, but I think in the case of this thread all the protagonists are big enough and ugly enough to disagree without it turning in to a bun fight... Ever the optimist, perhaps, but so far so good.

  9. #99
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    389

    Default Re: "Occasional" 240v

    It is clear this thread shows the myriad difficulties faced by perfectly competent electricians and techies when faced with systems and equipment which is neither fully nor accurately documented.

    The willingness of specialists to try out Plan A, then Plans B, C, D... and explain openly their thinking step by step is an example of the forums supporting the boating community at its best, and advancing community knowledge.

    Please do not stir the pot by making disparaging remarks and discouraging people from contributing. You know who you are.

  10. #100
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Home: Kent. Boat: Chichester
    Posts
    42,111

    Default Re: "Occasional" 240v

    Quote Originally Posted by solent clown View Post
    yes, and let's keep them all in the online, and R + D arena in the hands of experts You chaps carry on, thank you on my behalf and any others who may come across this later, and when I get a minute this weekend I will investigate our own ancient inverter and report back . For me it has all been about being sure an RCD would work. Maybe too cautious for our use, but that is my goal.
    I am sure you must be as confused as I am about the earthing arrangements of inverters and the use of an RCD with them.

    I think these two paragraphs from one of Stirling's instruction manuals may shed some light on the matter.

    Inverters tend to come in 2 different versions.

    Centre tapped Earth ( fig 3 ) where, in effect, you have no real live and neutral but 2 lives and no neutral . You have 110V on either side of the
    earth terminal making 220V across the two pins (live to “neutral”) but both pins are actually live. This is the most common and is default on this
    range of inverters products . If no RCD is used this would probably be the best / safety option. The worst case event you will only get a 110V shock,
    however, it is recommended that a RCD be used on all inverters but we recognise that a lot of people do not use RCDs* especially with smaller
    units, so,alough ilegal to do so, we can only give the best advice to our customer base who adopt poor practices. It is Sterling Power Products actual
    advice that all inverters should be used in conjunction with a RCD for ultimate safety and to comply with electrical installation codes. If you do fit a
    RCD (as you are suppose to) a centre tapped inverter would be your safest option, but it will not operate a RCD safely it is, therefore, vital that if
    you want to use a RCD in line with the AC output then the inverter unit must be converted from Centre tapped earth to Neutral earth bonded,
    failure to do so will render the RCD ineffective.

    Neutral Earth bonded ( fig 4 ), this is where the neutral is tied to the earth terminal giving 230V across the live and neutral ( more in keeping with
    the actual mains configuration ) but also 230V from live to earth. This allows a RCD to safely operate and confirm with hard wire installation
    requirements on vehicles and boats etc.

    The centre tapped earth type referred to in the first paragraph is easily converted to neutral earth bonding. The manual describes how to do it and the necessary link is supplied

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