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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
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    Plymouth
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    7,830

    Default Re: Studland Bay - what you need to do

    Quote Originally Posted by BelleSerene View Post
    Great initiative; thank you.

    Can you please be clearer about what action can be taken? Is an email sufficient? - you say to email and complete the consultation. Yet the consultation appears to be for industrial interested parties only. BTW, your link doesn't work.

    Has this question been answered?

    I do not mind at all firing off a missive about Studland but would hate to fumble this questionnaire which might be interpreted as not caring at all about daft plans for the other sites.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Ruislip
    Posts
    92

    Default Re: Studland Bay - what you need to do

    Here's the link, you need to click the survey button on the page.

    https://consult.defra.gov.uk/marine/...marine-conser/

    It's probably best to go with the survey if possible. It's designed for a variety of contributors I think, and with a bit of ingenuity it's possible to work what you want into the answers. But if you simply want to make the point that you value the Studland Bay anchorage, it's a recreational amenity which should not be lost for no valid reason, and that the eelgrass is flourishing anyway, the email route is probably appropriate. A large number of emails from different people would help.

    I will be using the questionnaire route, and here is the first part of my draft to date. Do note the point about the definition of Favourable Condition, anyone can use that, by email or questionnaire. (If the seagrass beds are in "Favourable Condition" then no management measures, aka restrictions, will be required).

    1. Do you agree that this site and specified features should be designated? Please explain and provide evidence to support your views.
    No: I do not agree with designation of the site as described in the Studland Bay Factsheet because

    A. It is implied that the seagrass beds are in Unfavourable Condition and
    B. The management scenarios imply that recreational craft anchoring may be causing significant damage to the seagrass beds

    Neither of these conclusions are supported by evidence, while substantial evidence does exist that neither is the case. There is a real risk that if designation proceeds on the basis described, that the local recreational boating amenity and navigational freedoms will be seriously compromised, significant public expenditure incurred, and the local recreational marine industries suffer significant loss of business and jobs, all on the bases of a false premise and of insufficient supporting evidence.

    There is ample evidence that during recent decades the eelgrass beds have been steadily consolidating and expanding, and are in healthy condition, and that the seagrass beds satisfy the definition of Favourable Condition as defined in existing MCZ Designation Orders:

    “ ―favourable condition”—
    (a) with respect to a broadscale marine habitat within the Zone, means that—
    (i) its extent is stable or increasing; and
    (ii) its structures and functions, its quality, and the composition of its characteristic
    biological communities are such as to ensure that it remains in a condition which is
    healthy and not deteriorating;”

    Evidence substantiating this view, and evidence relating to the effects of recreational anchoring on the seagrass Zostera marina both within the proposed Zone and as described in the worldwide scientific literature, will be outlined below. .....


    I will be adding lots of detail to these points, and adding more.

    If anyone has a good estimate of the costs to the local marine economy in the event of anchoring restrictions, there's a box for that in the questionnaire, and it could be submitted as "evidence", but an email is still better than nothing.
    Last edited by MarlynSpyke; 16-06-18 at 11:14.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    7,026

    Default Re: Studland Bay - what you need to do

    Quote Originally Posted by nortada View Post
    Why is this a sticky - ‘Cos it’s only 20 miles from the Solent?

    Possibly http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...ackwatershould become a sticky in the East Coast Forum?

    Possibly The South Coast or Just The Solent should have their own sub Forums and leave Scuttlebutt for topics of greater universal interest?

    Problem is too meany stickies clutter up a forum. A regular cull of dormant stickies can help.

    Just asking.
    As the old saying goes ĎUnited we stand, divided we fallí if all boaters fail to stand up to this the authorities will accomplish what they are pursuing, the driving of boaters from free anchorages into pay as you park areas like we have for cars. Then itís tax payable again and again ......

  4. #34
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Ruislip
    Posts
    92

    Default Re: Studland Bay - what you need to do

    "Why is this a sticky - ‘Cos it’s only 20 miles from the Solent?"

    Many MCZ's have already been designated, some contain seagrass (eelgrass), and bye-laws to "manage" anchoring could be passed in the future, although I'm not aware of any yet. The Studland arguments might be a more generally applicable test case which could influence existing MCZ's. Designated MCZ's with seagrass beds include

    Isles of Scilly
    Whitsand & Looe Bay (Cornwall)
    Mounts Bay (Cornwall)
    Torbay
    Needles
    Skomer (Wales, near Milford Haven))
    Waterfoot (Northern Ireland)

    - and there are probably several more. It's not a Solent-only issue.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    North from the Nab about 10 miles
    Posts
    8,525

    Default Re: Studland Bay - what you need to do

    Quote Originally Posted by MarlynSpyke View Post
    "Why is this a sticky - ‘Cos it’s only 20 miles from the Solent?"

    Many MCZ's have already been designated, some contain seagrass (eelgrass), and bye-laws to "manage" anchoring could be passed in the future, although I'm not aware of any yet. The Studland arguments might be a more generally applicable test case which could influence existing MCZ's. Designated MCZ's with seagrass beds include

    Isles of Scilly
    Whitsand & Looe Bay (Cornwall)
    Mounts Bay (Cornwall)
    Torbay
    Needles
    Skomer (Wales, near Milford Haven))
    Waterfoot (Northern Ireland)

    - and there are probably several more. It's not a Solent-only issue.
    I can add Porth Dinllaen on the Lleyn Peninsular, vital holding point for essential weather and tidal windows to traverse the tortuous and dangerous Caernarfon Bar at the West end of Menai Straights. Ive used it many times myself for just this. There is also eelgrass in the Medway, though apparently not in areas we use at present. At present, non seagrass MCZs do not directly affect us, but its too easy to add features to an existing MCZ without consultation, and for MMO to create new rules, limitations and bylaws out of the blue if somone decides we are damaging their favourite lugworms or whatever. Studland tops the list because Seahorses are more interesting than Lugworms, sea slugs or whatever. But it only takes some enthusiast like NGM to decide that boats are disturbing something to make a case for imposing further bans and limits, and there will be little opportunity for us to object.

    Marlynspyke spells out the 'favourable condition' argument about Studland's eelgrass: even this week I have been told quite seriously by a conservationist that the eelgrass there is detriorating, and not expanding. I simply produced three photos over the last 20 years.... The problem is there is no actual data measuring the growth over the last 70 years: its all 'anecdotal' so is conveniently discounted by the experts. The fact is that since befroe most of us bought our first boats, people have been anchoring in large numbers in the bay. During that time, aerial photography shows how the eelgrass beds have expanded from a couple of hundred square metres in 1953, to the present nearly 100 hectares (some recently suggest nearer 150 hectares). In recent time the eelgrass front has continued to spread inshore by around a metre a year. So arguably it is thriving even with people anchoring in it year after year. Marlynspyke spells out above the criteria Natural England use to assess health of a feature. In what way then does it not meet these criteria? Its stable, its expanding, its in good health.

    Studland is very much a test case for almost any MCZ area we operate in. Eastcoasters have MCZs in many of your estuaries. It only takes some enthusiast to identify something that they think MAY be being disturbed, for you to suddenly find you cant go there any more. There is little scope or chance of further discussion about who can do what if some NGM type claims 'damage' to whichever wriggly or flippy thing they think we might upset. Already in the wings is serious research in to the impact on wildlife of noise from Mobo and Yacht engines, which carries a long way underwater. I predict that will be the next battle once the silt settles in the MCZs and there is lots of scope for banning powered boats from an existing MCZ area. Only recently has it been 'discovered' that Seahorses are thriving in the N Sea - something many of your fisherfolk have known for many years. Are they using some of your MCZs as breeeding grounds? if so watch the sparks fly when that is 'discovered' too!
    Last edited by oldharry; 17-06-18 at 14:38.
    Is Conservation for wildlife or conservationists?
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  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    South Coast
    Posts
    12,577

    Default Re: Studland Bay - what you need to do

    Quote Originally Posted by nortada View Post
    I have used Weymouth and Poole on a number of occasions, they have always provided a safe haven.

    I never challenge the experiences of others but during my time with Joint Services, I frequently used Gosport out round the island and direct Dartmouth as a Yachmaster qualifying leg.

    As most of my passages were between October and March (hate The Solent in the summer), I had my share of adverse weather so with a doubtful forecast, Gosport - Dartmouth at night, provided a number of safe havens so was a better option then Gosport - Cherbourg another Yachmaster qualifying leg.

    This is why I offer that, to claim Studland as the only safe haven in the area, could be refuted so is not a good argument to counter a ban on anchoring and possibly other sanctions.

    In another life part of my job was to look for weaknesses in argument and it is from this background I offer this advice.

    Oh yes, a Plymouth man, my father knew HMS Exeter well but I donít think he ever anchored in Studland Bay.
    If you are on your way into Poole from the CI or Cherbourg and find you can't get through the entrance for any reason (which isn't that uncommon for a small boat) then you are faced with either Christchurch (and good luck trying to get in there if you can't make it into Poole) or Weymouth/Portland - a 25 mile slog mostly along a lee shore in the prevailing wind and quite possibly a close fetch for some of it - St Aldhem's isn't to be trifled with when it's in a bad mood either. Alternatively you can run/reach for the Solent and maybe get some shelter in Lymington (not too bad) or perhaps Beaulieu (not an easy entrance if you don't know it and it's late and you're tired). Either that or keep going for something inside the Solent proper.

    And you're doing that after at least 10 hours sailing, possibly more like 18 hours...

  7. #37
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Summer Walton, Winter Iberia
    Posts
    8,193

    Default Re: Studland Bay - what you need to do

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy_o_g View Post
    If you are on your way into Poole from the CI or Cherbourg and find you can't get through the entrance for any reason (which isn't that uncommon for a small boat) then you are faced with either Christchurch (and good luck trying to get in there if you can't make it into Poole) or Weymouth/Portland - a 25 mile slog mostly along a lee shore in the prevailing wind and quite possibly a close fetch for some of it - St Aldhem's isn't to be trifled with when it's in a bad mood either. Alternatively you can run/reach for the Solent and maybe get some shelter in Lymington (not too bad) or perhaps Beaulieu (not an easy entrance if you don't know it and it's late and you're tired). Either that or keep going for something inside the Solent proper.

    And you're doing that after at least 10 hours sailing, possibly more like 18 hours...
    Far too many ifs and buts.

    For one, Poole was a regular stop off and I have never been barred from entering in a south westerly, often in a 27footer.

    In a thread trying to retain anchoring rights in Studland Bay, this debate is a red-herring, which rather makes the case for not using the ‘safe haven’ argument - far too much room for diversions from the main thrust.
    Last edited by nortada; 21-06-18 at 22:26.
    Hoping for the best but planning for the worst‼️🇵🇹

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    West Sussex / Hants
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    Default Re: Studland Bay - what you need to do

    Gales are usually from the south west, and the ebb at Poole entrance is very strong, as a youngster I've been at a standstill there dodging the ferry when I mistimed the tide and should have anchored at Studland, fortunately in good weather; there are NO other handy diversions so I'd say the ' safe haven ' argument is very pertinent.

    I've had several occasions sheltering anchored at Studland when there was a line of white water not far offshore by Poole entrance channel, once we saw a chap drifting helplessly that way after his tender outboard failed and though ' Oh ********* we're going to have to go and get him ' and were pulling up the anchor when thankfully a big mobo grabbed him.

    A boat with a tired soaked crew, may well be a husband with seasick children and inexperienced wife ( not being sexist that's just how it often is ) could well have their lives saved by anchoring for a sheltered rest at Studland - Fatigue Is The Killer.
    Anderson 22 Owners Association - For info please ask here or PM me.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    Summer Walton, Winter Iberia
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    Default Re: Studland Bay - what you need to do

    Quote Originally Posted by nortada View Post
    Far too many ifs and buts.

    For one, Poole was regular stop off and have never been barred from entering in a south westerly, often in a 27footer.

    In a thread trying to retain anchoring rights in Studland Bay, this debate is a red-herring, which rather makes the case for not using the ‘safe haven’ argument - far too much room for diversions from the main thrust.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seajet View Post
    Gales are usually from the south west, and the ebb at Poole entrance is very strong, as a youngster I've been at a standstill there dodging the ferry when I mistimed the tide and should have anchored at Studland, fortunately in good weather; there are NO other handy diversions so I'd say the ' safe haven ' argument is very pertinent.

    I've had several occasions sheltering anchored at Studland when there was a line of white water not far offshore by Poole entrance channel, once we saw a chap drifting helplessly that way after his tender outboard failed and though ' Oh ********* we're going to have to go and get him ' and were pulling up the anchor when thankfully a big mobo grabbed him.

    A boat with a tired soaked crew, may well be a husband with seasick children and inexperienced wife ( not being sexist that's just how it often is ) could well have their lives saved by anchoring for a sheltered rest at Studland - Fatigue Is The Killer.
    Answer- don’t attempt to enter against the ebb. Called Seamanship

    Plan ahead to use that large window of the flood - similar situations exist worldwide. More seamanship.

    If the original plan goes to rats; change the plan early and with it the planned land fall. Even more seamanship.

    These 3 lines completely refute any suggestion that Studland Bay should be treated as a haven of last resort and this line of argument weakens the whole argument for continuing to permit anchoring in Studland.

    A much stronger argument is to refute the statement that current usage of Studland has a major impact on the environment and demonstrate that there are many other sites around the UK that have the same environment as Studland so no natural life is facing extinction as a result of anchoring in a Studland.

    In a stroke this turns the debate from the defensive to the offensive and places the opposition on the back foot.
    Last edited by nortada; 21-06-18 at 22:29.
    Hoping for the best but planning for the worst‼️🇵🇹

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    West Sussex / Hants
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    27,582

    Default Re: Studland Bay - what you need to do

    Quote Originally Posted by nortada View Post
    Answer- don’t attempt to enter against the ebb.

    Plan ahead to use that that large window of the flood.

    If the original plan goes to rats. Change the plan early and with it the planned land fall.

    These 3 lines completely refute any suggestion that Studland Bay should be treated as a haven of last resort and this line of argument weakens the whole argument for continuing to permit anchoring in Studland.

    A much stronger argument is to refute the statement that current usage of Studland has a major impact on the environment and demonstrate that there are many other sites around the UK that have the same environment as Studland so no natural life is facing extinction as a result of anchoring in a Studland.

    In a stroke this turns the debate from the defencive to the offencive and places the opposition on the back foot.
    In your remarkably spelled opinion only, not the real world - nobody thinks Lulworth Cove is a safe refuge as you've previously suggested - I will not bother replying to your strange posts any more.
    Last edited by Seajet; 21-06-18 at 08:29.
    Anderson 22 Owners Association - For info please ask here or PM me.

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