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Thread: Girls for Sail

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Girls for Sail

    Quote Originally Posted by bedouin View Post
    Hence the big difference between a company that offers both and one that only provides courses to women. None of the exceptions listed cover this case and there is little doubt that if any man challenged them in court they would lose.
    Lots of companies exist to provide services to marginalised groups. I think your "little doubt" may actually be "unfounded hope".

    As to education you are being selective with your figures. Look deeper and you will find that white (primarily working class) boys are being seriously disadvantaged in the secondary education system. However you choose to ignore that as it doesn't suit your anti-men agenda.
    There is no doubt that school results for girls are batter than for boys, and nobody in education thinks this is a desirable. A huge amount of effort is going into attempts to improve things, but it isn't easy. Much of the problem is outside school control - in particular a pervasive culture of low aspiration among working-class boys.

    What are my "anti-men" agenda, by the way? I don't seem to have a copy to hand.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Girls for Sail

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Citation needed. As far as I can see, their course fell fairly within the exceptions listed in the Women in Sport document I linked to earlier.



    You are sadly misinformed.







    Groan! Best person for the job! Simple.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Girls for Sail

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Lots of companies exist to provide services to marginalised groups. I think your "little doubt" may actually be "unfounded hope".



    There is no doubt that school results for girls are batter than for boys, and nobody in education thinks this is a desirable. A huge amount of effort is going into attempts to improve things, but it isn't easy. Much of the problem is outside school control - in particular a pervasive culture of low aspiration among working-class boys.

    What are my "anti-men" agenda, by the way? I don't seem to have a copy to hand.
    Boys and girls are different, they mature at a different age. They are hard wired differently. Simple

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Girls for Sail

    "Groan! Best person for the job! Simple."

    If only it was. I did a couple of research projects on this - those being preferred (won't go into who) thought it was obvious that they and their like were the "best person" type. Others disagreed.

    I must be missing something though. Did this company ever refuse male customers? If not, it can't be discrimination. Calling yourself something is not sufficient - bit like Monty Python and the one hour cleaners who took a day.
    Last edited by dgadee; 17-06-18 at 18:04.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Girls for Sail

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Try having a dig around the HESA (Higher Education Statistics Area) website. I agree that it's a complicated situation, with many factors to consider. For example, almost all the best students I taught engineering were women ... but they made up perhaps 20% of the total, and a young woman has to be bloody determined to go into engineering, which skews things.
    One particular statistic (and no I cannot give the reference at the moment, but is absolutely rings true to me), that I was given, by a teacher at a long established public school as part of a briefing on the EPQ, what that a considerably higher proportion of independently educated students than state educated drop out or fail during or at the end of their first year at university.

    Her reasoning was that public school children are used to being chased to do work by their teachers in a way that simply does not happen in most state sixth forms nor at university. Thus they do minimal work, get to first year exams and crash and burn.
    Last edited by Elecglitch; 17-06-18 at 19:31.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Girls for Sail

    Quote Originally Posted by skipper_stu View Post
    Groan! Best person for the job! Simple.
    The trouble is that we're not necessarily getting the best people for the jobs. That may sometimes be because of outright bias, but it's probably more an issue at an institutional level. Maintaining academic careers over maternity leave, for example, is a real issue. Or, earlier in the system, there is general agreement that it would be better to have more men primary teachers, but men who want to teach at that level face all sorts of ridiculous biasses.

    So yes, best person for the job, but let's not let irrelevancies get in the way of good candidates applying or being appointed.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Girls for Sail

    Quote Originally Posted by skipper_stu View Post
    Boys and girls are different, they mature at a different age. They are hard wired differently. Simple
    Ain't dat de troof. Part of the problem may be that we expect far too many life-defining decisions to be taken too young, but by the end of secondary school the differences between maturity in boys and girls are gone.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Girls for Sail

    Quote Originally Posted by Elecglitch View Post
    One particular statistic (and no I cannot give the reference at the moment, but is absolutely rings true to me), that I was given, by a teacher at a long established public school as part of a briefing on the EPQ, what that a considerably higher proportion of independently educated students than state educated drop out or fail during or at the end of their first year at university.

    Her reasoning was that public school children are used to being chased to do work by their teachers in a way that simply does not happen in most state sixth forms nor at university. Thus they do minimal work, get to first year exams and crash and burn.
    My sample size is small (100s) and therefore anecdotal, but I never had a comprehensive kid crash and burn whereas many privately educated ones had great difficulty adapting to university, for just the reasons you give. The spoon feeding and coaching doesn't just lead to higher grades (lenient marking helps there too, of course) - it also teaches them lousy study habits for the future. Of course many privately educated students do just fine - it's not a universal issue, just a trend.

    Meanwhile, back on topic, I really can't understand why anyone would get worked up about women-only sailing courses. In a sport/hobby which is completely dominated by men, does it really matter if a few dozen women each year choose to sail in single-sex groups? Is it really so threatening?
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Girls for Sail

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    My sample size is small (100s) and therefore anecdotal, but I never had a comprehensive kid crash and burn whereas many privately educated ones had great difficulty adapting to university, for just the reasons you give. The spoon feeding and coaching doesn't just lead to higher grades (lenient marking helps there too, of course) - it also teaches them lousy study habits for the future. Of course many privately educated students do just fine - it's not a universal issue, just a trend.

    Meanwhile, back on topic, I really can't understand why anyone would get worked up about women-only sailing courses. In a sport/hobby which is completely dominated by men, does it really matter if a few dozen women each year choose to sail in single-sex groups? Is it really so threatening?
    Full circle! As I said I was joking

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Girls for Sail

    I spoke with someone yesterday last night who did the ARC with Girls for Sail a few years back. The boat failed an inspection in Las Palmas: number of crew exceeded the liferaft spec, rigging was condemned and rigger needed to be flown out to replace, and inadequate First Aid. During this time practice sessions were cancelled for emergency maintenance, which could not prevent undetected refrigeration problems, the contamination of the drinking water , etc. from spoiling the trip.

    The experience was not good - I understand for any of them - and several were bitterly disappointed at having selected this route to complete a a fun and safe Atlantic crossing. Even during the Solent practice sessions she described a picture of comically noncompetitive "race boats" bordering on farce.

    I am certainly not trying to establish a cause and effect with the girls-only policy, but something serious seems to have been amiss somewhere.
    Last edited by dom; 18-06-18 at 08:03.

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