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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Live London
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    3,438

    Default Re: Wife loves boats but hates sailing

    I am in the med in a 58 ft boat.

    Up to a 3 is fine. 4 if you have to but you slow down. More than that forget it - its a leisure activity !

    Direction of travel makes a big difference. There is no tide here to speak of but downwind is a lot more comfortable.

    I dont think you will find many Mobo owners heading out intentionally in a 6

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    west yorkshire
    Posts
    3,519

    Default Re: Wife loves boats but hates sailing

    very difficult to give a definitive answer as everyone regardless of their level of experience will have a different view of ride quality when the wind picks up. No boat is perfect they are all some sort of compromise and I think the newer boats are worse rather than better as they manufacturers strive for 30kn+ and lower fuel consumption. The often used solution is a flatter bottom and blunter entry at the bow. There is nothing especially different about the solent - it's tidal and the wind speed/direction changes. You can encounter similar conditions in places with similar geography.

    As Portofino describes deep V hulls with sharp progressive entry at the bow seem to me to give the smoothest ride and take away the jarring and banging almost regardless of sea state as the hull first cuts the waves rather than just climbing and falling. I don't think the propulsion system makes much difference to ride quality either.
    Wind against tide is always hard work what ever you are in. Wind with tide is good as long as you are going with the tide etc. Some boats really don't like waves coming beam on, others are great when you approach the waves at an angle - just watch if waves are coming up behind you and overtaking you - some boats will want to broach in properly big waves (swing the stern around rapidly - can be quiet alarming)

    So which boat to pick? I can only describe some examples I have owned. Also to maintain some stability on a motorboat you need to be going at least 10Kns and preferably planing.
    As a good all rounder I found a sealine F43 pretty good in most sea states that most people would be out in. It was OK in short chop and didn't jar or bang.
    I had a fairline Targa 43 that was very good in most sea states. It would occasionally shudder in small close waves approaching at an angle but never jarred or banged. Long narrower hull, sharp bow.
    I had a sealine T50 that was very good in big long waves, and fast, however in short choppy waves it was annoyingly harsh, especially on the fly bridge. Every time it hit a wave you rock forwards in your seat - gets wearing after a while. Almost like riding a horse. That had a flattish bottom and bluntish bow similar to a lot of new boat designs. If I left a half full can of pop on a flat surface it would always fall over and the binoculars/hand held VHF etc would all have to be put somewhere they couldn't move.
    Current boat is Rodman 38 which is a bit of an odd ball planing design. Very sharp bow entry and deep V until 2/3 of the way back with a keel. Its almost a semi displacement hull. Its quite wide for its length so a bit of a fat lass, however the ride is remarkably smooth in anything. Friends who have been out on the previous T50 remark upon it as it is very quiet and smooth. The penalty for the ride is it is relatively thirsty compared to an equivalent 38 - 40' boat. Now though I can leave a half full can of pop on a flat surface and up to a good F4 it won't move. The binoculars just stay on the seat next to me.

    Smoothest riding boat I have ever been on was a proper semi displacement boat - like driving through cream, but they get very thirsty at speed.
    Last edited by kashurst; 18-04-19 at 11:38.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Algarve/Boat Chichester
    Posts
    530

    Default Re: Wife loves boats but hates sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by kashurst View Post
    very difficult to give a definitive answer as everyone regardless of their level of experience will have a different view of ride quality when the wind picks up. No boat is perfect they are all some sort of compromise and I think the newer boats are worse rather than better as they manufacturers strive for 30kn+ and lower fuel consumption. The often used solution is a flatter bottom and blunter entry at the bow. There is nothing especially different about the solent - it's tidal and the wind speed/direction changes. You can encounter similar conditions in places with similar geography.

    As Portofino describes deep V hulls with sharp progressive entry at the bow seem to me to give the smoothest ride and take away the jarring and banging almost regardless of sea state as the hull first cuts the waves rather than just climbing and falling. I don't think the propulsion system makes much difference to ride quality either.
    Wind against tide is always hard work what ever you are in. Wind with tide is good as long as you are going with the tide etc. Some boats really don't like waves coming beam on, others are great when you approach the waves at an angle - just watch if waves are coming up behind you and overtaking you - some boats will want to broach in properly big waves (swing the stern around rapidly - can be quiet alarming)

    So which boat to pick? I can only describe some examples I have owned. Also to maintain some stability on a motorboat you need to be going at least 10Kns and preferably planing.
    As a good all rounder I found a sealine F43 pretty good in most sea states that most people would be out in. It was OK in short chop and didn't jar or bang.
    I had a fairline Targa 43 that was very good in most sea states. It would occasionally shudder in small close waves approaching at an angle but never jarred or banged. Long narrower hull, sharp bow.
    I had a sealine T50 that was very good in big long waves, and fast, however in short choppy waves it was annoyingly harsh, especially on the fly bridge. Every time it hit a wave you rock forwards in your seat - gets wearing after a while. Almost like riding a horse. That had a flattish bottom and bluntish bow similar to a lot of new boat designs. If I left a half full can of pop on a flat surface it would always fall over and the binoculars/hand held VHF etc would all have to be put somewhere they couldn't move.
    Current boat is Rodman 38 which is a bit of an odd ball planing design. Very sharp bow entry and deep V until 2/3 of the way back with a keel. Its almost a semi displacement hull. Its quite wide for its length so a bit of a fat lass, however the ride is remarkably smooth in anything. Friends who have been out on the previous T50 remark upon it as it is very quiet and smooth. The penalty for the ride is it is relatively thirsty compared to an equivalent 38 - 40' boat. Now though I can leave a half full can of pop on a flat surface and up to a good F4 it won't move. The binoculars just stay on the seat next to me.

    Smoothest riding boat I have ever been on was a proper semi displacement boat - like driving through cream, but they get very thirsty at speed.
    That is all true but as I posted last year, it can be overcome with a good stabilization system. Although the boat is perfectly capable, we wouldn't plan to cruise in a F6, especially in wind over tide conditions but we will take on a F5 and don't hesitate when its just a F4. The stabilsers mean we rarely need to use power to get over the hump and can keep fuel consumption at tolerable levels. I may be tempting fate but in 4555 Nm cruising since 2015, including twice all the way round the Bay of Biscay, we haven't yet spilt a drop of coke or other more medicinal liquid.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Falmouth
    Posts
    1,841

    Default Re: Wife loves boats but hates sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by IDAMAY View Post
    That is all true but as I posted last year, it can be overcome with a good stabilization system. Although the boat is perfectly capable, we wouldn't plan to cruise in a F6, especially in wind over tide conditions but we will take on a F5 and don't hesitate when its just a F4. The stabilsers mean we rarely need to use power to get over the hump and can keep fuel consumption at tolerable levels. I may be tempting fate but in 4555 Nm cruising since 2015, including twice all the way round the Bay of Biscay, we haven't yet spilt a drop of coke or other more medicinal liquid.
    I remember leaving Bayonne with you and heading towards Zumaia, Breaking Bad was heeling like a pig, we looked back at Ocean Spirit and you were steady as a rock with the huge swells on your beam - we sped off in the wrong direction with Ann asking me why I hadn’t bought a boat with stabilizers

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    South
    Posts
    16,460

    Default Re: Wife loves boats but hates sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by Scala View Post
    Appreciate that views will differ, but I'd like to understand a bit more about how the weather, wind-over-tide, short choppy seas etc, curtail your cruising? How well does your own boat cope?
    Our Sealine SC35 ploughs through most things reasonably well.
    Had to slow down a few times for 2m waves off Selsey Bill on the way to Brighton, and I will back off to a minimum planing speed if things start to get uncomfortable, but most of the time it just chugs along at 19-22kts.
    My personal limit is an F5, anything more than that is hard work, especially docking, and it is supposed to be a leisure activity.
    Surfing down the waves into Chichester Harbour wind-over-tide is fun if you know what you are doing
    Trying to go the other way in the same conditions, probably not such a good idea.

    SC35 hull has a really quite deep forefoot, and carries that V quite a way back, despite being wide.
    So it's good for its size at squashing waves.
    But it's not so good with regards to top speed / fuel consumption.
    A Targa 40 would be a lot faster.
    Swings and Roundabouts ...

    .
    Last edited by FlowerPower; 19-04-19 at 00:13.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Home: Saffron Walden. Boat: Chichester
    Posts
    2,212

    Default Re: Wife loves boats but hates sailing

    Thank you folks for your replies, that's very helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by IDAMAY View Post
    Pretty much all D and SD boats will roll in beam seas unless fitted with stabilisers. Very few, if any, boats around the 40 foot mark will have stabilisers as OE and retrofit is likely to break your budget pretty quickly. We part solved the problem with the Trader 42 by upping the speed in beam conditions. This gave extra dynamic stability at the cost of greatly increased fuel consumption. Anywhere near max speed the fuel consumption instrumentation got quite frightening!

    We finally solved the problem by changing to the Trader 54 you see in the avatar. She is fitted with ABT Trac stabilisers and they are amazingly effective and mean we cruise around 8 kts almost all the time at reasonable fuel consumption levels and with no heel and almost never roll.
    IDAMAY has a stabilised boat - Appreciate the cost looks pretty horrendous but has anyone retrofitted a 42-45' sportscruiser with a Seakeeper?
    Graham. Bavaria 42 Vision, "Scala"

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Boat- SoF
    Posts
    4,743

    Default Re: Wife loves boats but hates sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by Scala View Post
    Thank you folks for your replies, that's very helpful.



    IDAMAY has a stabilised boat - Appreciate the cost looks pretty horrendous but has anyone retrofitted a 42-45' sportscruiser with a Seakeeper?
    What’s the main problem you are trying to solve ?

    If the weight distributions is adverse ( not wrong ) sub optimal like a sterndrive , Or theres dead rise insufficiency because there’s no enough HP to go fast enough from a lift POV so they deliberately flatten it off , and the forefoot is not sharp then it will slam earlier and force the driver to back off .
    Once at semi planing - keeps getting knocked back as it’s now running up and over ,sort of roller coasting up and down 2-3 M waves as opposed to slicing through then that’s gonna put her off ?

    Your seakeeper in a 42/40 odd ftr will add weight , but where ? Could knacker an already duff balanced boat ?
    AND it may help with D speed roll but won’t help enormously with wave pitch , if you end up running on them as opposed to slicing through .

    Obviously ours is at the cutting edge ( scuse the pun ) of hull comfort in planning boats and I was in exactly the same position as you regarding wife compatibility with the “ hobby “ .

    That’s all a distant memory now with my 23 degree dead rise mid engined , zero superstructure heavy (17770 kg ) Itama .
    Ok the massive MAN 13 L engines gobble more fuel than a longer , bigger but lighter Targa 47 with D9 ,s but we keep going smoothly planing at 26/28 Knots that a T47 back off in .From personal experience btw .

    A compromise worth accepting .

    Went cruising on Co with a mate running a Portofino 47 IPS 600 , he repeatedly kept coming over on the VHF “ drop the rpm “ as 26/28 ( end of season ) was too fast and uncomfortable for him but nought / normal / dead smooth for us .
    Dropping down to 20/22 his comfort zone was actually worse for us on two counts ,

    1- our engine rpm at or just below turbo spool so they are hunting .

    2- we loose dynamic anti roll stability from the hard chimes .

    2 ^^^ is the point re seakeeper.
    If your hull shape and weight distribution is right in the first place the faster you go the more stable she becomes in ROLL as well .

    You sort of speed your way into a better comfort zone - yup push the throttles fwd not back down .

    Aside from the dynamics fitting a sea keeper to a small boat it’s needs powering as well - geny running or a crazy inverter = added layer of hassle imho .

    Maybe as a last chance saloon take her to the SoF ( holiday ) or Naples and get a ride out on an Itama tripper boat .
    Last edited by Portofino; 19-04-19 at 08:51.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Boat- SoF
    Posts
    4,743

    Default Re: Wife loves boats but hates sailing

    Let’s go back to 1966 .
    E type Jag V12 , 150 mph in a straight line ———— owners whinge about handling, narrow wheel base , narrow track , poor steering ratios , or is it the narrow tyres ?

    Nope it’s staring the drivers of E types literally in the face —— the ( insert your own expletive ) ... ing engines in the wrong place -
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zly8XKIsDJk


    So look at your hull form carefully for best ride .

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Algarve/Boat Chichester
    Posts
    530

    Default Re: Wife loves boats but hates sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by Scala View Post
    Thank you folks for your replies, that's very helpful.



    IDAMAY has a stabilised boat - Appreciate the cost looks pretty horrendous but has anyone retrofitted a 42-45' sportscruiser with a Seakeeper?
    A friend of mine has fitted Seakeeper to a Broom 450. I think it was the first such. He got a very good deal because of that. He claims the Seakeeper is not as good as fins would have been but much better than none, especially at displacement speeds. Fins would, in any case, have been very difficult if not impossible to fit in the Broom.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Home: Saffron Walden. Boat: Chichester
    Posts
    2,212

    Default Re: Wife loves boats but hates sailing

    Hi Portofino, thank you.

    The main problem I want to solve is about comfort and perceived stability in moderate conditions, by which I think I mean F4 / choppy / beam seas. F6 we'd never choose to go out. F0-2, no problem in any boat. So it's the ability of the hull form to provide a stable platform at an acceptable compromise of speed and fuel burn, in these conditions. I understand the theory, and the effect of the hull form and weight /CoG / CoB distribution on ride and fuel burn reasonably well (I did Naval Architecture at Uni) but it's about how things play out in the real world. No experience of power of that size.

    The trigger is that she doesn't like sailing, so the proposal is to sell the nearly-new saily boat and buy an older mobo, but there are compromises that she and I both have to make. We want something that approaches our 42' yacht in terms of accommodation, but she won't consider a flybridge or a "traditionally styled" boat eg Hardy or Aquastar (that said, she liked the Elling) and wants to get places reasonably quickly, so full D eg Linssen or Van de Valk is out. We use the boat as a weekend apartment in the winter so the accommodation is important. Summer use is sociable / outdoor focussed so we want a sizeable, well equipped and comfortable cockpit space. Something over 50' in the UK compromises marina availability (and cost) quite a bit, so we've pretty much ended up with a sportscruiser about 44' as the likely choice.

    I know from your posts that you love your Itama and similar Italian boats, in the Med I get it, but for us the UK I think in addition to the accommodation factor we also need to think about resale, so it's very likely to be something from the usual suspects ie Princess V class, Sunseeker Camargue or Portofino, Fairline Targa, Sealine.

    Was looking at a 2002 Camargue last night (online) just sold with Sunseeker brokerage. That kind of thing.
    https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2...ue-44-3488845/
    Graham. Bavaria 42 Vision, "Scala"

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