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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    32,180

    Default Re: UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yngmar View Post
    Since I got PM'd to contribute here:

    We'll probably reflag the boat this winter, as the future of the red ensign is looking quite gloomy.
    Not sure what it is that leads you to this conclusion.

    The flag state of your boat has absolutely no effect on your freedom to move the boat within the EU. That is solely dependent on the boat being considered a "EU" boat. The evidence required for this is payment of VAT, or in some states such as Portugal and Croatia which also may require/accept a T2l which is the EU form declaring goods are of EU origin when moving across states. It is not intended for boats but for commercial shipments, but HMRC will issue one on request (details on the RYA site). There is no requirement for a VAT paid EU boat to be even registered in the EU. Registration and flag state are governed by international maritime law, not the EU.

    Your future problem with your registration is that you may cease to be eligible for the SSR as you may no longer meet the residency requirements, so renewal may be problematic. Registration in most states require either nationality or residence, or both, although you may be eligible to register the boat in the Channel Islands.

    Like all the other things being discussed here there are a number of different scenarios for the future, and if there are new rules for "UK" boats there are different ways of defining what a "UK" boat is, but I doubt that flag state on its own will be a determinant when residence and nationality of owner and particularly VAT are far more important.
    Last edited by Tranona; 19-08-18 at 11:28.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Med
    Posts
    6,271

    Default Re: UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tranona View Post
    Not sure what it is that leads you to this conclusion.

    The flag state of your boat has absolutely no effect on your freedom to move the boat within the EU. That is solely dependent on the boat being considered a "EU" boat. The evidence required for this is payment of VAT, or in some states such as Portugal and Croatia which also may require/accept a T2l which is the EU form declaring goods are of EU origin when moving across states. It is not intended for boats but for commercial shipments, but HMRC will issue one on request (details on the RYA site). There is no requirement for a VAT paid EU boat to be even registered in the EU. Registration and flag state are governed by international shipping law, not the EU.

    Your future problem with your registration is that you may cease to be eligible for the SSR as you may no longer meet the residency requirements, so renewal may be problematic. Registration in most states require either nationality or residence, or both, although you may be eligible to register the boat in the Channel Islands.

    Like all the other things being discussed here there are a number of different scenarios for the future, and if there are new rules for "UK" boats there are different ways of defining what a "UK" boat is, but I doubt that flag state on its own will be a determinant when residence and nationality of owner and particularly VAT are far more important.
    I hope your right , as that's the card I am playing ,
    why being a U.K. tax payer and be able to pass the rules to have a boat on the SSR registration and with dual Nat I hoping I can carry on as usually .
    Warning forumite dyslexia near by
    www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Algarve
    Posts
    11,666

    Default Re: UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

    Oh where to begin? Most aspects have been covered already, I'll try a ramble.
    I guess at the moment most live-aboards are treated as tourists and get 90 days but nobody bothers to check, as long as there is no tangle with the authorities.
    People deciding to move residence are supposed to give the local authorities notification, within about a week of getting an address, that they want to stay and apply for an ID card or a certificate of residence. I gather, one can own property and have that ownership registered but still not be resident, just a tourist to one's own home.
    The rules for EU nationals seems to be fairly uniform under the "freedom of movement" conditions. Pensioners, students, are treated as a different class compared to those who should be seeking work. That said, there seems to be a lot of different local/national rules and enforcement is lax.
    For non-EU citizens, it seems the Schengen Visa is the only EU rule, otherwise national ones apply, which might date back to pre-EU bi-lateral agreements.
    Those people who are already registered as resident in another EU country before the Brexit deadline (what ever that turns out to be) are going to be treated differently from those who want to change residence after the deadline (and presumably returning home will still be a right.) Getting one's foot in the door by registering residence in the EU prior to the Brexit deadline might be a good idea for some, as it looks like after about 5 years, the opportunity for dual nationality becomes available.
    Requirements are often quid-pro-quo, so if EU citizens need to go though a settled status procedure to become resident in the UK, then it seems likely that the EU27 might have a similar requirement for UK citizens wanting to establish their residency. Though that is probably what the EU27 currently do, as most have an ID card system that the UK lacks.
    Somehow I don't see the EU27 making a special "half-in" rule for the UK, but who knows. That would mean getting a (Schengen) visa with the 90/180 day rule for Brits. which again might be treated loosely by the local authorities,
    All these problems go away for those of us that have got dual nationality (one still in the EU). There may be a snag. Several EU states only accept dual nationality with another EU state. So after Brexit, might one be asked to give up one of the nationalities? I hope not.
    Last edited by RAI; 19-08-18 at 10:24.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Mooring, Faro
    Posts
    1,986

    Default Re: UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailfree View Post
    To encourage this and assist getting settled in Portugal they will grant NHR status that means your pension income is tax free for 10yrs. This does not apply to UK civil servants and Services pensions that the UK tax at source. Nor rental income from UK property as I know to my cost!
    There's no need to get into the Portuguese tax system regardless of what the rules say. We pay U.K. taxes and totally ignore the Portuguese system.

    To open a bank account or own a car/motor cycle, a fiscal (tax) number is needed, for which a boat yard address will suffice. Having a fiscal number does not require tax returns.

    It's easy to obtain 5 year residency at the local authority by proving - with utility bills if renting or, property papers if owned or, 2 Portuguese witnesses to swear you live at the address.

    Permanent residence can be applied for when the 5 year local expires (or maybe before) at SEF, the immigration department. My permanent residence card states "Permanent Residence" "Citizen of the European Union". After Brexit, the second statement will be incorrect so, whether just the wording or my status will change, I don't know. Although my wife is a Portuguese national, I have no intention of giving up British nationality.

    Boat status should be secure as it has EU VAT paid status so free to move around. If we leave EHIC, private health insurance will be required for visitors but not sure what will happen with residents. Although we have never contributed, both of us are on GP books at local health centre.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    32,180

    Default Re: UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

    Quote Originally Posted by sailaboutvic View Post
    I hope your right , as that's the card I am playing ,
    why being a U.K. tax payer and be able to pass the rules to have a boat on the SSR registration and with dual Nat I hoping I can carry on as usually .
    Vic. Suggest you read the latest eligibility rules for the SSR as they have changed. Being a taxpayer is no longer sufficient (not that it ever was, just sort of assumed). The definition of "resident" is much more clearly defined and you may not meet it.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
    Posts
    10,441

    Default Re: UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

    A slightly different angle, but within the scope of the topic, I hope:

    It’s generally a good idea to match income and expenditure, and certainly assets and liabilities, in currency terms.

    As the UK moves further from the EU, there is a possibility that the Pound will follow a different course to the Euro.

    But my pensions are all in Sterling. I may not be alone, here.
    Last edited by Kukri; 19-08-18 at 11:40.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Med
    Posts
    6,271

    Default Re: UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tranona View Post
    Vic. Suggest you read the latest eligibility rules for the SSR as they have changed. Being a taxpayer is no longer sufficient (not that it ever was, just sort of assumed). The definition of "resident" is much more clearly defined and you may not meet it.
    Thanks for that and yes I know all aBout that ,
    Lucky I can pass all the rules .
    ways and means , ways and means .
    Last edited by sailaboutvic; 19-08-18 at 11:52.
    Warning forumite dyslexia near by
    www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    1,243

    Default Re: UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

    I can't add anything to what is already here from people far more knowledgeable and experienced than me. Just want to thank Nortada and all contributors for the information so far and hope the discussion stays on this level

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Mooring, Faro
    Posts
    1,986

    Default Re: UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasarell View Post
    I can't add anything to what is already here from people far more knowledgeable and experienced than me. Just want to thank Nortada and all contributors for the information so far and hope the discussion stays on this level
    One problem is that although there are EU regulations, each country seems to have their own. Neighbouring Spain and Portugal for instance treat those staying >6 months totally differently so, those seeking advice should pay attention to country specific information rather than assuming it's a level playing field.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Grenoble
    Posts
    32,383

    Default Re: UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bouba View Post
    Hi Nortada
    I'm not a cruiser but live permanently in France. We own property pay tax and have been here for over a decade. But we have never formalised our residency. While my wife is fluent my French is dire.
    The problem, as i see it, is that France is the leading protagonist in the negotiations and possibly could take a hard line or just pretend nothing has happened. The argument that it will decrease their tax revenue or crash the property market doesn’t hold water as the French are quite able to cut off their noses to spite their face.
    So, we will continue to live here, enjoy the boating and the ambiance all the while I’ll study my French. And if they kick us out (or more likely, refuse us entry after we’ve visited the UK) so be it. Only time will tell
    The simple answer is apply for a carte de séjour it does not require any level of French but the application process can be tedious but your wife can steer you through it. At the moment you don't need one but can get a European Union one that gives yo residency rights for 5 years. The French are actually encouraging this and it seems probable that they will just transfer you to a non EU national if the worst happens.
    The other option is to apply for French nationality the language criteria is very basic B1 DELF look up some of the past papers, then a multiple choice set of questions on French culture etc and finally shaking the mayors hand and singing the Marseillaise.
    In any case they are not going to chuck you out.

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