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  1. #31
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    Mar 2018
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    Aberaeron
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    Default Re: Club Cruiser Racing

    I think the varying h/cap of NHC is supposed to overcome the ‘wallet waving’ fraternity, whether it does I’m not sure.
    It is the wallet waving that is partly responsible for the lack of enthusiasm of the average club sailor to join in the club races.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    32,692

    Default Re: Club Cruiser Racing

    Quote Originally Posted by Praxinoscope View Post
    I think the varying h/cap of NHC is supposed to overcome the Ďwallet wavingí fraternity, whether it does Iím not sure.
    It is the wallet waving that is partly responsible for the lack of enthusiasm of the average club sailor to join in the club races.
    It can be the other way.
    You need decent, well sailed boats to be enjoyable to race against. That's what brings people back time after time. The regulars usually make it to the top third of the fleet, when the regulars get bored because there is nobody any good to race against, they stop coming.
    On a sunny day in the winter, any race is great, just to get out there.
    But in the summer people get more picky.
    Personally I find if I'm winning too often I start to want to find better people to race against.
    Your club sailors need good people to learn from.
    It's easy to dismiss the good sailors with well equipped boats a 'wallet wavers' but very often most clubs have older, very experience racers spending quite carefully.
    The real wallet wavers are usually not very good, all the gear, no idea.

    The trick is to race against comparable people, in comparable boats. To me that means no beginners or olympians, not racing boats so much faster or slower they're not on the same leg of the course, not racing 2 up against full crews.

    It costs most people money to leave work early to race on an evening, they want value for that, which usually means quality.

    Converting ordinary club cruising sailors into regular racers is a dead horse I gave up flogging last century.
    If people want to race little traingles around the harbour, they'l buy a dinghy or an XOD. Most of them have bought something with a bog and cooker as a conscious choice not to race.
    Some of the rest of us have a yacht to go places in and a dinghy for the triangles around the bay.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Aberaeron
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    835

    Default Re: Club Cruiser Racing

    I just don’t have the enthusiasm for constructing a full reply to lw395 so will just make a couple of points.
    1. I don’t care if the cruising sailors ever become proficient racers or not, the object of the exercise is to have a bit of fun and get them on the water for the occasional club race. We have a couple of traditional races, apart from our regatta, that every year we get a sizeable number of our cruising members entering for the fun of it, and the only way of running it is to use a handicap system. Over the years winners have included Fulmar’s, Sadler’s. 25 & 29, Invicta 26 and one year a Seawych.
    2. Smaller clubs such as ours that are relatively isolated just don’t have the numbers of boats to race against comparable boats, O.K. we have 3 Fulmars in the harbour, but we only have 35 yachts in total, the rest of the boats are day fishers etc. so if we want to race we have to handicap, we do race against our nearest club, but their spread of boats is similar so again handicapping is essential.
    3. We don’t race in triangles around the harbour, all our cruiser races are offshore, our harbour is just about big enough to race a few dinghy’s around in the Winter when there are no boats moored, so we use a combination of offshore marks for our courses or passage races to other harbours for the longer weekend ones.
    4. There will always be those who are only interested in racing, and those who only cruise, but there are a lot of mid way sailors who enjoy both, and will join in the racing for the fun of it and be over the moon if they get a 2nd or 3rd let alone a 1st, not by spending a fortune on kevlar sails etc. but by simply using their skill in handling their boats and understanding the tidal flows and using every breath of wind to their advantage.
    So much for just making a simple points, but going back to the OP going down the route suggest by lw395 might be OK for clubs based in heaviy populated sailing areas where there might be 100’s or 1000’s of boats in a confined area, but in the more remote harbours and smaller clubs it would hasten the demise in racing rather than encourage it.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    32,692

    Default Re: Club Cruiser Racing

    Quote Originally Posted by Praxinoscope View Post
    I just donít have the enthusiasm for constructing a full reply to lw395 so will just make a couple of points.
    1. I donít care if the cruising sailors ever become proficient racers or not, the object of the exercise is to have a bit of fun and get them on the water for the occasional club race. We have a couple of traditional races, apart from our regatta, that every year we get a sizeable number of our cruising members entering for the fun of it, and the only way of running it is to use a handicap system. Over the years winners have included Fulmarís, Sadlerís. 25 & 29, Invicta 26 and one year a Seawych.
    2. Smaller clubs such as ours that are relatively isolated just donít have the numbers of boats to race against comparable boats, O.K. we have 3 Fulmars in the harbour, but we only have 35 yachts in total, the rest of the boats are day fishers etc. so if we want to race we have to handicap, we do race against our nearest club, but their spread of boats is similar so again handicapping is essential.
    3. We donít race in triangles around the harbour, all our cruiser races are offshore, our harbour is just about big enough to race a few dinghyís around in the Winter when there are no boats moored, so we use a combination of offshore marks for our courses or passage races to other harbours for the longer weekend ones.
    4. There will always be those who are only interested in racing, and those who only cruise, but there are a lot of mid way sailors who enjoy both, and will join in the racing for the fun of it and be over the moon if they get a 2nd or 3rd let alone a 1st, not by spending a fortune on kevlar sails etc. but by simply using their skill in handling their boats and understanding the tidal flows and using every breath of wind to their advantage.
    So much for just making a simple points, but going back to the OP going down the route suggest by lw395 might be OK for clubs based in heaviy populated sailing areas where there might be 100ís or 1000ís of boats in a confined area, but in the more remote harbours and smaller clubs it would hasten the demise in racing rather than encourage it.
    But this thread wasn't really about you was it?

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
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    Aberaeron
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    835

    Default Re: Club Cruiser Racing

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    But this thread wasn't really about you was it?
    Err no, but it was about how to get more members involved in racing. Me? I used to race regularly weekends and evenings, but now I do a lot more cruising and just enter the odd race for the fun of it, so Iím now one of those who join in to make up the numbers, donít spend a fortune on getting my boat set up for racing, but still once in a while I still win the odd race.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    32,692

    Default Re: Club Cruiser Racing

    The point is, around Hayling, there is a great deal of choice.
    Within a short drive (or maybe RIB ride) we have the Solent clubs, the Chi Harbour clubs, the IoW etc.
    People who want to race can take their pick.
    Mostly there seems to be a 'flight to quality'.
    If you're making the effort to go racing, it's better to support the good stuff that's already happening.

    It's a different situation than places where there's nothing decent going in within a sensible distance.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Aberaeron
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    835

    Default Re: Club Cruiser Racing

    Naturally, the situation is different in high density areas compared to those like ours which are fairly spartan, but this doesn’t necessarily affect the quality of racing.
    One thing that shouldn’t be overlooked is ensuring the compentence of the OOD and race control, if competitors see errors in race control, poor planning or indifferent courses being set, they will drift away. Nothing worse than hammering away on the water when you see that those running the race aren’t doing the job.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Oxfordshire
    Posts
    656

    Default Re: Club Cruiser Racing

    There are plenty of reasons why cruiser owners are not attracted to racing which include those mentioned in this discussion such as different handicap systems; membership and participation costs; competing with dedicated racers and race-equipped yachts, boring courses etc.

    Maybe there is not enough emphasis on the other benefits of cruiser racing on the social side: among the crew and between the crews as well as afterwards when you arrive somewhere which has already been booked for you. There is also the advantage of seeing how small changes in yacht handling can make you sail much faster. All this can make it great fun.

    However, a big concern for those who have not raced before is a fear of not knowing what you need to know and doing the wrong thing in close proximity of other yachts. Often you can only get this through experience; perhaps crewing with others. That was why a club already mentioned in this thread set up a seminar to introduce cruiser owners to racing. It was popular this year and we plan to run it again in 2019.
    https://www.ccrc.co.uk/seminar-interest/

  9. #39
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    Mar 2018
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    Aberaeron
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    Default Re: Club Cruiser Racing

    Even in a small club such as ours skippers are often looking for crew to race, and this is one of the best ways to learn the ropes, but shore-based race evenings are worth holding, it’s at these that the basic racing rules are learned additionally they can be used to bring on inexperienced race officers.
    Usually it’s not essential to know off by heart the full rules of racing, unless you really are competing at the top end of the sport, most club racing relies upon you knowing the basics such as starting proceedure, when you have the right of way what to do if you touch a mark and things like this.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    66

    Default Re: Club Cruiser Racing

    Quote Originally Posted by birdseye View Post
    I very much doubt that your comments are meant seriously - they certainly are drivel.

    If you wish to compete sailor vs sailor then the only way to go is one design with very strict controls on equipment. Anything other than that brings boat design and budget into the competition.

    IRC being a fixed handicap based on design parameters is vulnerable to clever designers and to deep pockets, and both. Even without that, like other handicap systems it wont balance performance for every state of tide and wind. A boat at .9 wont compete on even terms in tidal waters with one on 1.05.

    NHC takes a design based handicap ( drawn up with help from the RORC) and adjusts it for performance. The adjustment is automatic and so cant be fiddled by the RO to favour pals, and its clever enough not to be swayed by extreme performances. The adjustment is just what should have been done with PY though many clubs like my own didnt bother. Its like a golf handicap, and whilst suddenly turning up mid series with a set of new carbon sails might improve the performance of your old Westerly, the advantage wont last for long. A good system for clubs where the majority want Corinthian racing. At my own club running NHC we regularly get boats coming in within a second or two of each other on corrected time, so there is real incentive to improve.

    Its a free country. You take your own choice of which system you sail for the most fun.
    From personal experience, what happens with an NHC type handicap in the long run is often that the people with small boats and budgets who sail well get sick of getting beaten on handicap by bigger, more expensive but poorly sailed boats. Under a NHC type system you could have a Sonata that beats an Impala every week across the line, so that soon even when the Impala finishes 10 minutes behind its little sister, the bigger boat can win on rating. That's very frustrating.

    There's also little incentive to improve because even if the Snottie team (who could be very good to start with) worked really hard to improve and got their boat going 3 minutes faster, soon the handicapper will catch up to them and they'll be expected to beat the Impala home by 13 minutes. And on some days the guys on the Impala may actually put down their beers and sail their boat at 90% of its capacity so that even when the Sonata has been sailing at 110%, the Impala can finish minutes behind and win.

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