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  1. #151
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    1,280

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    AIUI, the phrase 'marked fuel' has a particular meaning in this context.
    Along the line of fuel carrying the particular trace chemicals/dyes used to denote rebated fuel in EU countries.
    Some other countries dye some fuel various colours (including red) for other reasons, e.g. to denote biofuel or sulphur content, but that doesn't matter because it's not 'EU Red' or 'Irish Green' or whatever.
    What they are testing for is 'Euromarker' AKA Red 124.
    Having that in your tank pretty much denotes the fuel came from marked supplies in an EU country.
    Sounds about right.

  2. #152
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Me Edinburgh, boat JWD
    Posts
    4,865

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    What they are testing for is 'Euromarker' AKA Red 124.
    Having that in your tank pretty much denotes the fuel came from marked supplies in an EU country.
    Except it's Solvent Yellow 124. The red/green/blue/etc. colour comes from the addition of another dye.

  3. #153
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,804

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorman View Post
    how ever do you imagine the europeans have manage it these past 20+ years
    you dont have to shout mate. We are all allowed our little phobias. Hope you never get your filters blocked.
    Be well.
    Real men do it two handed

  4. #154
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Boat (now back in) the Clyde
    Posts
    4,858

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by westhinder View Post
    I have never understood how so many seemingly rational people have tried to argue that they need not follow the rules of the club they belong to. We used to have red diesel too for our boats, until it was decided red was off limits. There were some grumblings at the time, because the price went up a bit, but that’s it. We adjusted and forgot about it. Unless you have a big mobo, it does not make a big difference in the total running costs of the boat, and if you do have a big mobo and are worried about the fuel bill, perhaps your boat is too big for your purse.
    A great common sense perspective

  5. #155
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    3,146

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elecglitch View Post
    It wouldn't, as they are irrelevant to the offence which as has been stated numerous times, is having marked fuel in the tank.

    It seems unlikely that Continental Europe (standfast Belgium) will imminently start targeting random UK vessels for fines, but should you fail 'the attitude test' I suspect it will be a case of standby for the fuel test kit to emerge. The tactic in the past has been for this to happen whilst passports are being 'inspected' and their return is then conditional on paying the fine.
    Elecglitch, can you point to a source for this? Certainly, the EU directive is about selling marked diesel and buying it. It's not about having it in your tank. That's just used as evidence that you must have bought it (within the EU).

    Why this matters is that if you're right, an American or Morroccan or Russian or post-Brexit British vessel travelling in to the EU with home-bought marked diesel falls foul of the EU law, whilst if I'm right they don't.

    Your second point is true but I think not relevant. Of course renegade customs officers can make it up as they go along, and can bully the citizen. But they generally don't, and within civilised countries such as Franch, Belgium, Germany, Holland, they generally won't.

    You say the offence is having marked diesel in the tank. Can you provide a link to that law or directive please?

  6. #156
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Jersey
    Posts
    720

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Appledore View Post
    Although we have discussed this issue quite often, I am surprised that no mention of the Channel Islands has been made? As far as I know, you can only get red diesel in St Peter Port. And, of course, the Channel Islands are not part of the EU nor the United Kingdom. So red it will be, and perhaps fines for those who go to France, Belgium, Holland and so on? So boat owners in Guernsey will still risk fines, as they do now I suppose? BTW, my own boat is registered in Guernsey although based in Cornwall.
    Interestingly we get quite a stream of French boats turning up at our fuel berths during the summer to fill up with our cheap 'marked' fuel. I guess the risk to them being spotted back in Normandy is pretty low at their sleepy ports.

    Our road diesel is about £1.15/l and that includes road tax. Our marine diesel is marked red (petrol green) and is taxed lower at around 75p/l. I imagine we will still be able to continue with reduced tax marine fuel as we are not involved with the EU, however there is a chance that checks in French ports will increase and that will cause us a problem. It would be fairly easy to have white and red diesel available portside as there are a number of outlets here and all are close to each other.

    Perhaps we might introduce our own different marker dye that is relevant locally but not from an EU perspective.
    Last edited by Keith-i; 09-11-18 at 09:10.

  7. #157
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Portchester, Solent
    Posts
    4,876

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith-i View Post
    Perhaps we might introduce our own different marker dye that is relevant locally but not from an EU perspective.
    That, to me, seems like the obvious way out of the whole farce.
    I guess the EU has got a rule outlawing it?

  8. #158
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    3,146

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by alahol2 View Post
    That, to me, seems like the obvious way out of the whole farce.
    I guess the EU has got a rule outlawing it?
    No, it hasn’t. But - at the risk of repeating myself - no one has pointed to an EU rule outlawing red dye either. The directive outlaws the purchase, storage and sale of fuel on which the requisite tax hasn’t been paid. If that fuel was bought outside the EU, then for it to be imported in a vessel’s propulsion tank and used for propulsion will not break any EU regulation. Not whether the fuel is dyed red, blue or all the colours of the rainbow. And that’s precisely what the situation will be if the UK leaves the EU’s jurisdiction. You’ll fill your tank in the UK with red diesel purchased legally outside the EU and you’ll sail into the EU with it in your tank. No- one has pointed to an EU regulation that that breaks - and I suggest that’s because there isn’t one.

  9. #159
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    33,152

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by BelleSerene View Post
    No, it hasn’t. But - at the risk of repeating myself - no one has pointed to an EU rule outlawing red dye either. The directive outlaws the purchase, storage and sale of fuel on which the requisite tax hasn’t been paid. If that fuel was bought outside the EU, then for it to be imported in a vessel’s propulsion tank and used for propulsion will not break any EU regulation. Not whether the fuel is dyed red, blue or all the colours of the rainbow. And that’s precisely what the situation will be if the UK leaves the EU’s jurisdiction. You’ll fill your tank in the UK with red diesel purchased legally outside the EU and you’ll sail into the EU with it in your tank. No- one has pointed to an EU regulation that that breaks - and I suggest that’s because there isn’t one.
    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...lex:31995L0060
    Article 3

    Member States shall take the necessary steps to ensure that improper use of the marked products is avoided and, in particular, that the mineral oils in question cannot be used for combustion in the engine of a road-going motor vehicle or kept in its fuel tank unless such use is permitted in specific cases determined by the competent authorities of the Member States

    Which in plain english means EU countries will nick anyone with 'euromarker' tainted diesel in their tanks.

  10. #160
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Portchester, Solent
    Posts
    4,876

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...lex:31995L0060
    Article 3

    Member States shall take the necessary steps to ensure that improper use of the marked products is avoided and, in particular, that the mineral oils in question cannot be used for combustion in the engine of a road-going motor vehicle or kept in its fuel tank unless such use is permitted in specific cases determined by the competent authorities of the Member States

    Which in plain english means EU countries will nick anyone with 'euromarker' tainted diesel in their tanks.
    I don't know about the rest of them but my boat hasn't got wheels.

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