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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
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    West Mersea
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    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elecglitch View Post
    That would be fine if the law was that the duty must be paid, however the law is that it is illegal to have marked fuel in the tanks.
    For EU nationals in the EU.
    www.crossingthethamesestuary.com

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    1,277

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by tillergirl View Post
    For EU nationals in the EU.
    No, any (pleasure) vessel in the relevant EU country's waters (excepting of course innocent passage which does not include port calls). Flag state and nationality of crew/owner are not relevant.
    Last edited by Elecglitch; 26-10-18 at 20:37.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    504

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elecglitch View Post
    No, any (pleasure) vessel in the relevant EU country's waters (excepting of course innocent passage which does not include port calls). Flag state and nationality of crew/owner are not relevant.
    this is true, many British yachts that have docked in the EU have been fined with red diesel in their tanks especially Holland
    auribus teneo lupum

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Boat Orwell - Me Norwich
    Posts
    6,296

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by moomba View Post
    this is true, many British yachts that have docked in the EU have been fined with red diesel in their tanks especially Holland
    My impression is that it is a few, not many.

    That does not change the basic problem of a perceived (larger or smaller) risk deterring visits.

    Most countries do not seem bothered about pursuing UK registered leisure craft, and the remainder seem to have done so only occasionally.

    Belgium seems to have blown hot and cold on the matter over time, but was recently operating a publicly announced 'unofficial' blind eye while the EU law interpretation challenge was progressing, and seems to have become sensitised to the resulting harm to its tourist trade.

    I suspect that post-Brexit (if it happens) it will continue to be formally a punishable offence in EU countries to have red diesel in your tank, but most countries will continue not to bother with any/much enforcement. Those like Belgium who feel the need to check up on their own registered craft, will continue or come to some sort of informal 'excused if you're Non-EU registered and have paperwork to show you bought it outside EU' practice if not policy.

    That could settle down to a working arrangement (unless and until some fool is caught using it to cover some huge smuggling scam). One can live in hope, anyway.

    What I definitely don't expect to happen is for the UK Government to address the problem. This is the least of their EU & Brexit problems.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    31,979

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by tillergirl View Post
    Have we agreed to be bound to the EU Directive when we have left the EU? Bit surprised about that and if we have then that's the end of red. However, I thought the point was to leave the EU and leave the mountain of Directives. If we leave the EU and the Directive then we can use red subject to our own Excise rules post Brexit. Once we have left the EU and the UK rules allow us, they cannot stop us using red. There is the issue of course that member states might suspect a UK yacht with red had illegally purchased red in the EU and if the UK yacht had done that, clearly it would be wrong. If you showed you had purchased all the red in the UK that ought to be ok but....
    You are right - that is what I guess most people thought, particularly those who voted leave. However "chequers" does not do that but accepts that the UK will still be subject to EU directives, not just in the supply of goods but in many other key areas such as employment law, environmental law and who knows what else. As dom says most of this is already passed into UK law and we will continue to be obliged to accept any new directives. None of this has been spelt out in detail primarily because the EU has rejected the proposal in principle because it is "cherry picking".

    So the problem becomes different if we do leave properly and become a third country as we will then be free to do what we want with red diesel, but visitors may still be fined if the other countries decide to apply the EU rule to visitors from third countries. So far they seem not to have done but guess because such visior numbers are currently very small.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    South Coast
    Posts
    12,576

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by awol View Post
    There is a difference in dispensing rules for petroleum spirit and gas oil - AIUI there is no limit for dispensing or transporting the latter in portable containers.
    Once we are out of the EU the government could revert to the duty free status for marked gas oil (a.k.a. red diesel) - aye, right!
    That's actually a lot more likely than you think - electric cars are rather mucking up the revenue stream and we'll probably see an alternative system of road mile charging soon. It's a political nightmare and any Government that institutes a pay per mile scheme would only have any chance of surviving if it gave back something pretty big such as fuel duty.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    33,132

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    I suppose we might want separate tanks for our eberbastos and run them on heating oil?
    I don't think increasing our spend on diesel will make a big impact in the scheme of things.

    I think the availability issue is mostly overblown, a few people in more remote areas might have to consider how they operate. Some people who never seem to actually sail anywhere might need bigger tanks if their refuelling options are reduced.

    I have heard that HMRC are pretty much onside with the EU over this, as it's perceived that there is significant evasion of the duty due on propulsion fuel. It's easy to buy red diesel at agricultural rates and pour it into the tank of your boat. There are plenty of garages in the countryside who will sell you red 'for your generator/cement mixer/minidigger'. There are a lot of people who run such machinery who also have yachts/powerboats and mysteriously don't manage to collect many marina receipts for fuel.
    I wouldn't want to defend the fuel duty split for a boat with no eber, no generator and plenty of solar charging.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Bricks & mortar: Italy. Me & boat: Aegean
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    9,978

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tranona View Post
    As dom says most of this is already passed into UK law.
    He may have said that, but he certainly didn't write it on here.
    All epigrams are false

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Where life is good
    Posts
    12,220

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    For certain in percentage terms, there is a lot of dodging fuel duty on private leasure boats.

    But in absolute values how much does it amount to? I think we have used 40l of fuel all year. Compared to a car, that would last some a day and many a week. And even though boating is popular, more people don't own a boat than do.

    Is this simply an EU dictat or is there some real fiscal value in taxing leisure bost owners
    Life is too short to drink bad wine.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Bricks & mortar: Italy. Me & boat: Aegean
    Posts
    9,978

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomahawk View Post
    Is this simply an EU dictat or is there some real fiscal value in taxing leisure bost owners
    I very much doubt the rules are aimed specifically at any group of users, but at illegal use of duty-free diesel in general. No doubt many would be appalled if there weren't such controls.
    (The last check I saw was on Greenwich Common. I doubt it left many boaters feeling persecuted.)
    All epigrams are false

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