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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
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    Solent, UK
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    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    I use so little diesel in a year, I'm unconcerned about the tax situation, however it's resolved. If I have to pay it in full, so be it. I am more concerned that if Marine stations do put in a "white" tank for leisure yachties (like me) what's the guarantee it'll be all mineral with no bio fuel?

    What REALLY yanks my chain is having to pay VAT on the fuel duty charged as well as the "price" dieso. Now THAT is a fight worth taking on.
    Grow old disgracefully, it's more fun

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    33,156

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Topcat47 View Post
    I use so little diesel in a year, I'm unconcerned about the tax situation, however it's resolved. If I have to pay it in full, so be it. I am more concerned that if Marine stations do put in a "white" tank for leisure yachties (like me) what's the guarantee it'll be all mineral with no bio fuel?

    What REALLY yanks my chain is having to pay VAT on the fuel duty charged as well as the "price" dieso. Now THAT is a fight worth taking on.
    We'll be using the road diesel which people have been using fairly happily in the rest of the EU.
    The stuff that car engines last 300,000 miles on.
    I think you will find not only will you be paying VAT on the duty, you'll do so at the full 20% rate, not the low 5% rate charged on red.
    No, it's not a fight worth taking on.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
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    Solent, UK
    Posts
    4,330

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    If we are forced into using road diesel (currently 5% bio but 10 and 20% are mooted) the dread "bug" is going to be a huge problem for sailors. It's not about how effective it is in car engines. I use a tank of Dieso in my car in about a fortnight. A tankful of Red lasts me a season at least on the boat.
    Grow old disgracefully, it's more fun

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Bricks & mortar: Italy. Me & boat: Aegean
    Posts
    9,985

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Topcat47 View Post
    If we are forced into using road diesel (currently 5% bio but 10 and 20% are mooted) the dread "bug" is going to be a huge problem for sailors.
    If it did become "a huge problem", then wouldn't any fuel sold waterside be demonstrably unfit for purpose? And where might that take us...?
    (Not trying to belittle your concern, just exploring the possible consequences.)
    All epigrams are false

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
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    Solent, UK
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    4,330

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    I'm not keen to fund a test case, are you?
    Grow old disgracefully, it's more fun

  6. #36
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    33,156

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    It might need people to update their fuel systems and practise better fuel control and cleanliness.
    But at least it will be easy to empty the tank into a road vehicle to avoid excessive storage times.
    Nobody ever seems to get bug problems in a car, despite never adding snake oil and never cleaning or fully emptying the tank. A lot of cars don't do huge mileages. Not a big percentage of cars, but there are tens of thousands of cars out there doing only a few thousand miles a year and/or being left idle for months on end.
    Cars for sit on forecourts unused for weeks on end. Problems are few.
    I suspect the recirculating fuel system and decent tank design, which means any free water is removed whenever the engine runs, removes the problem?
    Diesel bug has been around a lot longer than bio-diesel.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Bricks & mortar: Italy. Me & boat: Aegean
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    9,985

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Topcat47 View Post
    I'm not keen to fund a test case, are you?
    Not sure it would require a test case. The qualifier is its becoming an actual "huge problem" which would be hard to dismiss as fiction. Consumer law would presumably apply.

    The same "huge problem", one hopes, might also trigger some strong response from the RYA.

    And if either of those come to pass, a retailer's response might be to stock a different fuel (at perhaps, greater cost). Or stop flogging fuel altogether. Hence my implication of unintended consequences in my earlier post.

    By way of a slight aside, even if regulations required, say, 10% FAME, this would not (under current practice) prevent the selling of 0% FAME. The requirement is for x% FAME across the market, not on any specific product. The issue seems, above all, to be willingness (which is in essence, often a commercial consideration).
    Last edited by macd; 27-10-18 at 11:40.
    All epigrams are false

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Solent, UK
    Posts
    4,330

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    As someone who has experienced "the bug" more than once, it's not a trivial problem. It cost me a lot just to dispose of the contaminated fuel (and NO I wasn't prepared to use it in the tank of my road vehicle). A swift trawl though posts on this site should convince you it's all too common even with red Diesel. It's far from easy to drain my 60l tank into containers and I'm sure there are many others who would find having to do this on a regular basis somewhat tiresome. As for using it in a road vehicle, it's currently "red" and it's use illegal. It may surprise you to know the "dye" is remarkably persistent, too. My Brother -in-Law has a diesel "lawnmower" which was used with red diesel on a farm. He has no access to red diesel yet the stuff in the tank remains pink after three years of use.

    It's not actually illegal to sell leaded petrol but just try to buy it anywhere, hence the plethora of additives needed if you're running an old, unmodified, high performance classic.
    Grow old disgracefully, it's more fun

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    34,618

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Topcat47 View Post
    It's not about how effective it is in car engines. I use a tank of Dieso in my car in about a fortnight. A tankful of Red lasts me a season at least on the boat.
    I think the state of waterside fuel stations has something to do with it too. A few years ago I was replacing the fuel lift pump in my car and decided to take a look at the primary filter while I was there - since I’d never changed it in several years of ownership I assumed it must be pretty gummed up. Nope, clean as a whistle, yet I get a constant (though manageable) stream of black crud appearing in the filter bowl on the boat. The boat tank has been cleaned and scrubbed by hand twice in my time, and it’s fairly small for the size of boat so we’re cycling the fuel through in reasonable time, so most of the crud has to be coming in through the filler nozzle.

    I think roadgoing fuel stations with constant turnover keep their tanks and their stock in better condition than many scruffy intermittently-used fuel barges.

    Pete

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Solent, UK
    Posts
    4,330

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    That's why I always use the Cowes Harbour filling station for the boat. I still dose my boat fuel with biocide though.
    Grow old disgracefully, it's more fun

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