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  1. #71
    Join Date
    May 2003
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    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomahawk View Post
    You are right, I don't get it. The Uk government was happy to allow leisure boat owners to use marked fuel. Then the EU instructed the UK government to end the practice. If it were not the case, we would not be having the discussion about red fuel.
    Brexit: ‘taking back’ what we had never lost, in order to lose everything we had...

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    1,466

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomahawk View Post
    You are right, I don't get it. The Uk government was happy to allow leisure boat owners to use marked fuel. Then the EU instructed the UK government to end the practice. If it were not the case, we would not be having the discussion about red fuel.
    Yes, we would! Even the UK custom checked cars for red diesel before we joined the EU. A lot of countries have different tax rates for different uses and mark fuel accordingly. Ireland and Sweden use green markers. I remember innocently, before the Euro trying to buy diesel from a Dutchman who only sold red diesel and he forcibly told me that he could not sell red diesel to a non commercial user. If we get to countries that do not allow marked diesel in boats then we can expect problems, EU or no EU! You have to abide by the laws of the country you visit, unless in international waters. For example any ship visiting the UK is liable to inspection by UK surveyors to ensure compliance with our maritime safety laws. If they fail we may and do impound such vessels until rectification.

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    On the Celtic Fringe
    Posts
    12,703

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
    And what was he noticed that was odd?
    He would not say. It was part of a very long investigation, hence the High Court comment, I think he just struck lucky spotting the car on a Saturday.
    Cynical Scottish almost retired engineer.

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Boat (now back in) the Clyde
    Posts
    4,849

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by GTom View Post
    I have a sailing boat with diesel heating, the amount I use for propulsion is less than what I use for heating (during my latest 1 week on the water I haven't even moved the boat, but used the heating extensively). AFAIK heating is a full legitimate use of red diesel, am I wrong?
    If you seriously use so much diesel for heating then surely the answer for you would be to fit a separate heating fuel tank, not usable by the engine. Seems fair and simple solution.

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    6,351

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by GTom View Post
    I have a sailing boat with diesel heating, the amount I use for propulsion is less than what I use for heating (during my latest 1 week on the water I haven't even moved the boat, but used the heating extensively). AFAIK heating is a full legitimate use of red diesel, am I wrong?
    The current legal deal is that you are liable for tax on the fuel that you use for propulsion. Any other use, like lighting, pumping, heating, battery charging etc, is not liable for the tax. It is YOU who decides what proportion of your fuel is used for propulsion. You tell the fuel vendor how much tax to apply.

    HMCR have let it be known that they will not quibble about anyone claiming 60/40. ie 60% propulsion, and 40% other use, and so that has become the norm. If you can justify using more for heating etc than for propulsion, it is up to you to claim for that, and if questioned, to be able to show justification.

  6. #76
    Join Date
    May 2003
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    75,802

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by NormanS View Post
    The current legal deal is that you are liable for tax on the fuel that you use for propulsion. Any other use, like lighting, pumping, heating, battery charging etc, is not liable for the tax. It is YOU who decides what proportion of your fuel is used for propulsion. You tell the fuel vendor how much tax to apply.

    HMCR have let it be known that they will not quibble about anyone claiming 60/40. ie 60% propulsion, and 40% other use, and so that has become the norm. If you can justify using more for heating etc than for propulsion, it is up to you to claim for that, and if questioned, to be able to show justification.
    This has all been chewed over many, many times for Eons. Try the forum search
    Brexit: ‘taking back’ what we had never lost, in order to lose everything we had...

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    6,351

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorman View Post
    This has all been chewed over many, many times for Eons. Try the forum search
    Why are you telling me? I was explaining the situation to GTom, who asked the question.

  8. #78
    Join Date
    May 2003
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    75,802

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by NormanS View Post
    Why are you telling me? I was explaining the situation to GTom, who asked the question.
    He might "search" & find it
    Brexit: ‘taking back’ what we had never lost, in order to lose everything we had...

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Suffolk
    Posts
    4,128

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by westhinder View Post
    May I draw your attention to the fact that for many years white road diesel has been used in boats all over Europe. You would hardly be a test case.
    There do not seem to be any more problems with diesel bug over here than in the UK. Certainly it is not a burning topic among yachtspeople over here, far less I would say than in the UK, if these forums are anything to go by.
    Thing is, its not just the ‘bug’ issue that causes concern. Also there is the problem that older engines may have seals in their construction which won’t tolerate bio ethanol. In addition and according to the September 2015 YM, road diesel in Europe HAS to have 7% bio ethanol added so even getting hold of FAME free white diesel would be illegal. Which is all to say that going white for some will mean rebuilding/replacing older engines long before they really need to. How environmentally friendly is that?
    https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news...e-diesel-32404
    Don’t woffle

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    11,137

    Default Re: Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champagne Murphy View Post
    ,,, according to the September 2015 YM, road diesel in Europe HAS to have 7% bio ethanol added so even getting hold of FAME free white diesel would be illegal.
    It would be illegal to sell it on forecourts for use in vehicles, it would not, and is not, be illegal to sell it on the dockside for use in boats. Hence the availability of FAME free MDO (marine diesel oil)

    It would equally be perfectly legal to continue selling exactly the same fuel as marinas etc. now sell (commonly known as gas oil, which covers a multitude of sins) but without the red dye marker

    It is only the marker that is a problem, not the nature of the marked fuel (that, of course, may change in the future)

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